Sam Harris wrote:It all hinges on when that glob of cells become conscious...and it will for a long time. I think that the religionists need to keep their religigionist noses in their religionist business on this and other issues...and vice versa in some cases.
I'm not feeling the partial-birth abortions, because I don't know if the baby can feel that, but a first-trimester termination...c'mon...is fetus saying "ouch"?
Yeah, and like the morning after pill? Come on! It's like 8 cells by then! (Is that a zygote? A blastocyst? My 8th grade biology is failing me here...) It's no different than popping a zit!!
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
Scottie wrote:For those of you who used to be religious anti-abortionists, do you have a different opinion on abortion now?
My feminist thoughts:
Just because you are "religious" does not necessarily mean you are anti-abortion. How about the fact that a woman any woman is entitled to a safe legal medical procedure. There are many religious people that feel this way, there are too many pro-choice people for them to be all atheist.
Believing that a woman is entitled to have access to a safe legal medical procedure has nothing to do morals/religion. A woman's right to choose what to do with her OWN body should have NO ties to any religious belief whatsoever, but it does.
Too much of our constitution is tied to religion/morals and always will be. I hate having to live by someone elses morals.
Why we still allow our rights to be controlled by some religious old fashioned thinking is beyond me?
My body, my choice, my legal right. At least for now.
Yet no matter how many times Roe v Wade comes before the supreme court and how a women's rights have been chipped away, abortion is still legal because a large part of society feels abortion is a private choice between a woman and her God.
To answer your question finally I have always believed in a woman's right to choose, my conversion to atheist had no bearing on that.
As a theist, I have always believed in a woman's right to choose as well, and SUAS, I think you spoke very well on this. Just because you are religious does not necessarily mean you are anti-abortion. Me, personally, unless I had to for medical reasons, I would not abort my child...even if I was raped. I know what it feels like to be born unwanted. I would keep and cherish my child. Children are gifts. But I cannot speak for another person.
Forgive my intrusion otherwise.
I could never have an abortion myself either, yet knowing that I have the right, that I would be not be faced with having a "back alley abortion" makes me feel soo much better.
I have known women that have had abortions before and after Roe v Wade.
The horror stories would make you cry, it did me. I think I am showing my age. Oh well.
God has left the building and is staying at Motel 8
What is that book that was turned into the movie about the doctor who had the clinic where the women could come to either have their children or an abortion, and he trained an orphan to be a doctor...
Was it Apple Cider Rules?
That was a good book...had some horror stories in it as well.
And I'm showing my age...if my picture doesn't do it well enough. ;-)
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
I am for massive teaching and education, and the prevention of unwanted pregnancies.
I am for bringing children into this world who have loving, decent parents who will care and love them.
I am passionately for allowing life to come forth in all its amazing beauty and diversity!
Having said this, I think the first weeks after fertilization, of cells gathering as a possible potential baby do not count as a human being.
I also am not for overturning Roe vs. Wade.
My hope is that we as a society will move to a point where there is virtually no need for abortions because people take responsibility and only create life when they are prepared. I think it will happen in a century or so.
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
Scottie wrote:For those of you who used to be religious anti-abortionists, do you have a different opinion on abortion now?
My feminist thoughts:
Just because you are "religious" does not necessarily mean you are anti-abortion. How about the fact that a woman any woman is entitled to a safe legal medical procedure. There are many religious people that feel this way, there are too many pro-choice people for them to be all atheist.
Believing that a woman is entitled to have access to a safe legal medical procedure has nothing to do morals/religion. A woman's right to choose what to do with her OWN body should have NO ties to any religious belief whatsoever, but it does.
Too much of our constitution is tied to religion/morals and always will be. I hate having to live by someone elses morals.
Why we still allow our rights to be controlled by some religious old fashioned thinking is beyond me?
My body, my choice, my legal right. At least for now.
Yet no matter how many times Roe v Wade comes before the supreme court and how a women's rights have been chipped away, abortion is still legal because a large part of society feels abortion is a private choice between a woman and her God.
To answer your question finally I have always believed in a woman's right to choose, my conversion to atheist had no bearing on that.
Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Except for the feminist part, that is.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil... Adrian Beverland
Scottie wrote:Adam Corolla (when he was on Loveline) used to talk about an idea of putting birth control in the drinking water. If you qualified for a license to have a baby, the state would provide you with a pill that would neutralize the chemical in the water. I liked this idea!
I'm sorry, but eugenics will never sit well with me. Then again, I'm not an atheist. I just have this crazy notion that not only does God exist, but that even the financially disadvantaged, mentally retarded, physically handicapped, those with unpopular beliefs or customs, and those with chronic genetic illness deserve the chance to have children without the state's meddling.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
Scottie wrote:Perhaps it a simple matter of phrasing. Religionists question at what point the spirit enters the body. An atheist will question at what point does a human gain consciousness?
For me it is neither a question of the spirit entering the body nor of human consciousness. I consider people to be people even when they are unconscious. Does a fertilized egg deserve the rights of a person? That's a tricky question. Personally I wish to err on the side of protecting it (just as we disallow cruel treatment to other non-human animals). However, I suffer from one big problem: I don't have a womb so really anything I think won't matter. Maybe when the world develops artificial wombs then we can solve the problem.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
GoodK wrote:I was always ok with abortion, but one thing I have changed positions on, dramatically, is homosexuality.
I can relate. My views haven't changed much on abortion (was against it in my TBM days, and I still have problems with it), but I have done a complete 180 on homosexuality and gay marriage.