Question for the atheist converts

[Guest]

I knew I was biting off more than I could chew tonight.

beastie, I've been gone a few days and really don't have time to respond to this anymore tonight. I was just passing through and felt compelled to comment on this since it is something I am passionate about. I'll elaborate more thursday.

As far as the bigotry, why don't you demonstrate it.

Last time I checked it was claimed on this forum that religion, not atheism, is dangerous. I don't recall you complaining about bigotry in any of the two dozens threads that kept reasserting that bigoted theme.

Anyway, can you PM me and point me to the other threads. I promise I have every intention of responding. I always have. I've just been caught up with work as of late.

PS: I never said atheism causes abortion, or causes crime, or causes immorality, etc. I said previously that religion provides motivation to do good whereas atheism doesn't. That isn't the same as saying atheism causes us to do bad. Atheism does nothing, whereas religion does something. But I have heard plenty of annoying comments on this thread from atheists regarding abortion.

PSS: Moniker, abortion is protested by a religious majority. You don't see any atheist organizations trying to overturn Roe/Wade.

Anyway, more later this week.

[_Moniker]

Tarski, I'm sorry.

Dart, women are told exactly the procedure that will be taken. There is even counseling before hand. Videos are watched and they are told STEP BY STEP what will occur.

[_Tarski]

Tarski, I'm sorry.
.

Me too. He turned out to be a dangerous person with powerful parents that tried to force thier son into her life.
His trick was to break the put a hole in the condom and not tell her.

She made the right choice. He would have haunted her for her whole life using the child as a weapon. He admitted as much.
I would never have met her.

And 2-3 weeks does not a person make. Dart can not say it is. He has no basis. I do, I have studied it. His partial birth abortions aren't even in the ball park.

[_Moniker]

PSS: Moniker, abortion is protested by a religious majority. You don't see any atheist organizations trying to overturn Roe/Wade.

I'm aware of both of these statements. Yet, it is the women that fill their pews that are predominantly getting these abortions. So, perhaps instead of overturning laws they should look each Sunday about them -- to those that need help getting out of poverty, those that can't afford birth control, etc...

[_dartagnan]

Moniker, that simply isn't true. At least not for my sister. Hell she didn't even need parental permission.

They want you in and out with the least amount of riff raff as possible. Why would they show you images of what's going to take place, just to get the woman more emotionally unhinged?

Tarski, I'm speaking in general terms. You never said you were talking about your wife. If you set that trap for me, well, what do you want me to do about it? Take it back?

OK, I gotta hit the hay.

[_beastie]

One of the religions that is most adamantly opposed to abortion, the roman catholic church, actually has a higher percentage of women getting abortions than other religions. Odd, isn't it?

Frankly, I usually view the "abortion is murder" statement as meaningless rhetoric. If these people really, really believed that children are being murdered daily, then they are grossly negligent in not taking any extreme action necessary to stop the murders. In other words, the only people I think sincerely believe abortion is murder are those people who are bombing abortion clinics. The rest mouth it as a useful bit of rhetoric, but they don't really believe it. Or if they do, they are amoral cowards for not doing something about it. I mean, really. If you believe abortion clinics are the equivalent of gas-chambers, the sites of daily mass murder, then you'd do anything possible to try and shut them down. The lame picketing and the silly pictures and the shouting means nothing, if you really believe it's murder.

Dart, your bigotry against atheists has already been demonstrated on the last few threads that addressed the topic. Go answer them there. I won't derail this thread with it anymore.

[_Tarski]

Moniker, that simply isn't true. At least not for my sister. Hell she didn't even need parental permission.

They want you in and out with the least amount of riff raff as possible. Why would they show you images of what's going to take place, just to get the woman more emotionally unhinged?

Tarski, I'm speaking in general terms. You never said you were talking about your wife. If you set that trap for me, well, what do you want me to do about it?

I want you to do two things.

1. Think about all the ways life and pregnancy could be more complicated and even dangerous than you might imagine as a man. For example, my wife didn't know he had broken the condom util a couple weeks later. Plus he was a psycho that warned that he would use the child to stay in her life. He revealed himself as a nut case all at once. He was a seducer, trickster and deceiver. He called her to harrass her even after she married me.

2. Think about every step from an ovum forming in the ovaries right up to the birth. Ask yourself at which moment we have a human and at which moment do we have merely a cell or a mere cluster of cells. It starts out not human and ends up human. At what point is it so human that you want to throw around the word murder? How many cells? Do you really think that the outward form is the determiner of what is human? What if it is just a brute fact that the shape happens long long before the more important inner being? In fact, I am quite sure this is true. I looked at it from every angle I could think of and didn't depend on emotion evoked outward appearances.

[_Moniker]

Moniker, that simply isn't true. At least not for my sister. Hell she didn't even need parental permission.

They want you in and out with the least amount of riff raff as possible. Why would they show you images of what's going to take place, just to get the woman more emotionally unhinged?

.

Dart, I spent most of my early twenties being fairly active with women's social concerns. I keep abreast of the latest. I KNOW at ALL Planned Parenthoods they have counseling for a few moments (if the woman wants more she can have it), and there are videos that you MUST watch and then a waiting period of a few hours... in some states it's more than a few hours.

Here's my local one that I'm pretty familiar with and counseling:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/mid-ea ... ptions.htm

One of the questions they ask is if there are any religious views that would conflict with the decision -- they are aware of the issues and turmoil going on in these women's lives. They have volunteers that hold their hands, wipe their brows, talk to them....

[_asbestosman]

"God" is the ulitmate abortionist. I'm not sure why religionists find the whole thing objectionable. That god of yours loves to abort the babies, fetuses, and zygotes like no one's business. Who cares if we abort an additional few million? That god of yours is aborting billions... Quite literally. He's the baby-killer extraordinaire.

I don't think God doing the deed makes it any easier to accept for those who belive. The only help I know of in the case of natural termination to pregnacy is not realizing you're pregnant in the first place.

[_asbestosman]

Abortions are more often sought from those with lower economic status -- don't want poor women getting abortions then help them with birth control.

It really bothers me that the poor are disproportionally affected. While I'm certainly in favor of birth control and sex-education, I'm still uneasy with something basic that disproportionally effects the disadvantaged whether it's health care, births, or education. That just doesn't sit right with me. Maybe it's just my religious voice--I'm trying to be honest--but something inside me feels like we're genociding the poor's offspring if they're the ones most effected by this. Yes, I'd rather pay higher taxes and have the state pay for the children of the poor than to have a society where poor women feel more pressure to have abortions than other women.