Does the Church Suppress History?

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_KimberlyAnn
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Post by _KimberlyAnn »

bcspace wrote:Considering all the time you invest in antiMormonism, I wouldn't believe you if you said you weren't familiar with the CES site or the institute manuals.


Well, I am quite unfamiliar with the CES site, and the institute manuals, not that it matters. Don't believe me if you prefer. But, if you were to tell me you were or weren't familiar with the CES site or the manuals, I would believe you. I guess that's one of the many differences between us. I don't naturally assume people are lying. Perhaps that's why I was so shocked to find out what a liar Joseph Smith was.

KA
_SatanWasSetUp
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Re: Does the Church Suppress History?

Post by _SatanWasSetUp »

mentalgymnast wrote:I have never heard discussions as to Brodie's book being a "historical novel" or Quinn's work being "untrustworthy" in general church group settings. Or discussions/warnings of any other books that I can think of.

Years ago when I was a babe in the woods in regards to the unwhitewashed version of church history, etc., I can't remember anything that would have discouraged my reading interests at all. My interests developed independently without any influence one way or the other from "the church".

I think that you are, as usual, putting blame on "the church" where none is warranted. Why do you keep doing that?

Regards,
MG


You could test our theory. Try taking copies of No Man Knows My History to church and passing them out.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley

"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

BC wrote:The only other option would be that an exmo has been away for so long they have forgotten.



No, BC, that is not the only other option. Another very viable option is one which has proven to exist by MEMBERS on this site, and others I have participated in.

Like it or not, there is a vast inconsistency with what members have been taught over the past 20 years. I have spoken with members who have been taught about Joseph Smith's polygamy, and members who haven't. Now, personally, I always knew about Joseph's polygamy. What I didn't know about until a couple of years ago, was the polyandry. I was also under the assumption that it was culturally very acceptable for girls to marry around the age of 14 or 15 during that time period. I later found out that this was actually NOT the case.

Rather than lash out accusations that people are lying, why not discuss where the inconsistencies lie and let's come up with some solutions that might combat THAT issue.
_Mister Scratch
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Re: Does the Church Suppress History?

Post by _Mister Scratch »

mentalgymnast wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:It seems to me that the Church hasn't so much suppressed history, or openly advised members against reading certain things; rather, Church leaders have cannily engaged in spinning and smearing of certain works. Thus, Brodie's admirable and groundbreaking biography becomes a "historical novel." D. Michael Quinn's work becomes "untrustworthy." So on and so forth. I reckon that this process, and the effect it has on the membership, is somewhat akin to the exhortations to avoid R-rated movies and the like. There's not really a formal list (or an Index Librorum Prohibitorum, as it were---conveniently, the MPAA does this for the Church) on which specific films are banned; instead, the general warning is enough to scare most TBMs away from this.


Comparing movie ratings and such with what books not to read doesn't work. Ratings have been talked about/discussed ad nauseum for years among church members...at church, and in homes. I have never heard discussions as to Brodie's book being a "historical novel" or Quinn's work being "untrustworthy" in general church group settings.


Of course you haven't (which, incidentally, supports the general thesis of the critics on this thread). Notice that I said "Church leaders" and not "the rank and file." The leader I was specifically referring to is DCP, who is, for better or worse, LDS Apologist Numero Uno.

Or discussions/warnings of any other books that I can think of.


The "discussions/warnings" tend to be very vague in general. Cf. the earlier quote that was posted by RDL on the MADthread. The same poster also more recently included this passage from Elder Nelson:

In this Church there is an enormous amount of room—and scriptural commandment—for studying and learning, for comparing and considering, for discussion and awaiting further revelation. We all learn “line upon line, precept upon precept,”3 with the goal being authentic religious faith informing genuine Christlike living. In this there is no place for coercion or manipulation, no place for intimidation or hypocrisy. But no child in this Church should be left with uncertainty about his or her parents’ devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Restoration of His Church, and the reality of living prophets and apostles who, now as in earlier days, lead that Church according to “the will of the Lord, . . . the mind of the Lord, . . . the word of the Lord, . . . and the power of God unto salvation.”4 In such basic matters of faith, prophets do not apologize for requesting unity, indeed conformity, in the eloquent sense that the Prophet Joseph Smith used that latter word.5 In any case, as Elder Neal Maxwell once said to me in a hallway conversation, “There didn’t seem to be any problem with conformity the day the Red Sea opened.”

Parents simply cannot flirt with skepticism or cynicism, then be surprised when their children expand that flirtation into full-blown romance. If in matters of faith and belief children are at risk of being swept downstream by this intellectual current or that cultural rapid, we as their parents must be more certain than ever to hold to anchored, unmistakable moorings clearly recognizable to those of our own household. It won’t help anyone if we go over the edge with them, explaining through the roar of the falls all the way down that we really did know the Church was true and that the keys of the priesthood really were lodged there but we just didn’t want to stifle anyone’s freedom to think otherwise. No, we can hardly expect the children to get to shore safely if the parents don’t seem to know where to anchor their own boat. Isaiah once used a variation on such imagery when he said of unbelievers, “[Their] tacklings are loosed; they could not . . . strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail.”6
(emphasis added)

Here we have one of the Twelve stating that skepticism is a "No no." Is a specific text mentioned? No, and there doesn't need to be---that was my point vis-a-vis the movie analogy. The Brethren do not have to issue dictates about which movies are okay and which aren't, since the MPAA does it for them. In terms of books dealing with embarrassing facets of history, the Church obviously cannot come out and say, "Avoid these books!" since that would simply stir up too much curiosity. Rather, the tactic has been to quietly suppress these problems of history---to discourage "skepticism," to proffer (to paraphrase your own words) "whitewashed" versions of Church history, and to sneakily ban all "unpleasant" books from the shelves of Deseret Book.

Years ago when I was a babe in the woods in regards to the unwhitewashed version of church history, etc., I can't remember anything that would have discouraged my reading interests at all. My interests developed independently without any influence one way or the other from "the church".


The question isn't just one of whether or not you, as an individual, were told to avoid certain, specific works; the question is (at least in part): Has the Church "suppressed history" in any way? The answer, as per your own statements, seems to be "Yes."

I think that you are, as usual, putting blame on "the church" where none is warranted. Why do you keep doing that?

Regards,
MG


Who is "blaming" anyone for anything? I don't really "blame" the Church for suppressing embarrassing history. In fact, I rather sympathize with and understand it. Gee, are you upset that some people who left the LDS Church have a legitimate beef about the Church suppressing its history?
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

The only other option would be that an exmo has been away for so long they have forgotten.

No, BC, that is not the only other option. Another very viable option is one which has proven to exist by MEMBERS on this site, and others I have participated in.


Not believable because of my long experience with both the Church and with exmos. Sorry it's just an anecdote, but it is what it is.

Like it or not, there is a vast inconsistency with what members have been taught over the past 20 years. I have spoken with members who have been taught about Joseph Smith's polygamy, and members who haven't.


Considering how regular the Church has been it's teaching for decades, the fact that some have been taught lends less credence to those who claim not to have been taught.

Now, personally, I always knew about Joseph's polygamy. What I didn't know about until a couple of years ago, was the polyandry. I was also under the assumption that it was culturally very acceptable for girls to marry around the age of 14 or 15 during that time period. I later found out that this was actually NOT the case.


English common law has the age of consent at ten. As for culturally acceptable, I don't think that matters.

Rather than lash out accusations that people are lying,


There is no lashing out here. I simply match my answers to my accusers. If they want to dare me or accuse me of lying or being disingenuous, they get what they get.

why not discuss where the inconsistencies lie and let's come up with some solutions that might combat THAT issue.


Aside from some humor, that's what I do. The problem is that some think I'm addressing the whole issue when in fact, I am addressing just part such as is the case here.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

BC, one more question---

When did you learn about Joseph Smith's polyandry?

I have some other comments and questions for you that I will address later when things calm down a bit here.
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

BC, one more question---

When did you learn about Joseph Smith's polyandry?


I seem to recall sometime during my mission or perhaps shortly after; more than 2 decades ago.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_mms
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Post by _mms »

bcspace wrote:
BC, one more question---

When did you learn about Joseph Smith's polyandry?


I seem to recall sometime during my mission or perhaps shortly after; more than 2 decades ago.



BC, do you agree with Elder Oaks that:

"we’re emerging from a period of history writing within the Church [of] adoring history that doesn’t deal with anything that’s unfavorable, and we’re coming into a period of “warts and all” kind of history. Perhaps our writing of history is lagging behind the times, but I believe that there is purpose in all these things — there may have been a time when Church members could not have been as well prepared for that kind of historical writing as they may be now.

On the other hand, there are constraints on trying to reveal everything. You don’t want to be getting into and creating doubts that didn’t exist in the first place. " and that

"[W]e’re getting more and more forthright, but we will never satisfy every complaint along that line and probably shouldn’t."

More specifically, do you agree , as Elder Oaks stated, that the church intentionally presented an adoring history that did not deal with anything unfavorable in order to reduce potential doubt among members?

And do you agree that there is any need at all to become more "forthright" as Elder Oaks suggests?
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

BC, do you agree with Elder Oaks


I thought I did exactly that when I said 'suppress' isn't exactly the right word back on page 2.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Created state vs. Creative state.

How is that complicated and what's to explain?



How about "conveniently omit"?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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