Question for the atheist converts

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Criminalization of the activity and arrest and punishment of the perpetrators comes to mind. That infanticide, even in utero, doesn't enrage and concern society as a whole I think reflects primarily on lack of education on the seriousness of the act. I don't think parents should be killing their children under any circumstances, whether they live in a tent or a womb.


Well, first, are you referring to abortion of a fetus at ANY POINT in the pregnancy as infanticide, or are you referring to late term abortions?

People are concerned and enraged over the abortion issue. That isn't the point. The point, for me, is whether or not these people truly believe it's the exact same thing as murder. The intense focus on late term abortions, and the nearly universal agreement - even in Roe - that these type of abortions should be strictly regulated and only conducted under certain medical conditions - shows that even people who are opposed to abortion altogether are willing and able to make distinctions about the egregiousness of the act, depending upon the development of the fetus.

I think if they were told they'd have to wait until the child was born full term, and then kill it in the delivery room, they wouldn't do it.


This only makes sense if you're talking about a late term abortion. Late term abortions are pretty rare. So I think it's reasonable to conclude that these religious women having abortions are not having late term abortions.

My own view is that frequently the culpability falls on the parents of an unmarried woman who procures an abortion or the father of his child. Either someone is trying to avoid scandal, or complication, or responsibility, or a woman fears reprisals by her parents. I know personally of situations where devoutly religious families who would be opposed to abortion otherwise have paid to procure one for a daughter or son's girlfriend in order to avoid scandal; yes, that seems to me to be stark hypocrisy.


Sure, it's hypocrisy, but again, that isn't the point I've been trying to make. These people, albeit hypocrites, are usually fairly decent human beings who would NOT condone outright murder in order to avoid scandal. But they will have an abortion in order to avoid scandal. To me, what this indicates is that these people, despite their rhetoric, do not really believe abortion is the moral equivalent of murder. Yes, they believe it's a horrible act, and egregious sin. But murder? I doubt it. But maybe I'm naïve, and all these religious women really would kill their next door neighbor in order to avoid a scandal. What do you think?
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_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

beastie wrote:Sure, it's hypocrisy, but again, that isn't the point I've been trying to make. These people, albeit hypocrites, are usually fairly decent human beings who would NOT condone outright murder in order to avoid scandal. But they will have an abortion in order to avoid scandal. To me, what this indicates is that these people, despite their rhetoric, do not really believe abortion is the moral equivalent of murder. Yes, they believe it's a horrible act, and egregious sin. But murder? I doubt it. But maybe I'm naïve, and all these religious women really would kill their next door neighbor in order to avoid a scandal. What do you think?


I would agree, and I would agree that it doesn't make sense.
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_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

beastie wrote:
Criminalization of the activity and arrest and punishment of the perpetrators comes to mind. That infanticide, even in utero, doesn't enrage and concern society as a whole I think reflects primarily on lack of education on the seriousness of the act. I don't think parents should be killing their children under any circumstances, whether they live in a tent or a womb.


Well, first, are you referring to abortion of a fetus at ANY POINT in the pregnancy as infanticide, or are you referring to late term abortions?


I'm referring to intentional killing of any child by his or her parent(s) at any time, in utero or extra utero.

People are concerned and enraged over the abortion issue. That isn't the point.


But shouldn't it be?

The point, for me, is whether or not these people truly believe it's the exact same thing as murder. The intense focus on late term abortions, and the nearly universal agreement - even in Roe - that these type of abortions should be strictly regulated and only conducted under certain medical conditions - shows that even people who are opposed to abortion altogether are willing and able to make distinctions about the egregiousness of the act, depending upon the development of the fetus.

I think if they were told they'd have to wait until the child was born full term, and then kill it in the delivery room, they wouldn't do it.


This only makes sense if you're talking about a late term abortion.


I would disagree.
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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

So you consider abortion in the first trimester as the moral equivalent of infanticide?
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_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

beastie wrote:So you consider abortion in the first trimester as the moral equivalent of infanticide?



I would use the term to include any intentional killing of a child by his or her parents at any time, in utero or extra utero.
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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

How about the day after pill? Infanticide?
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_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

beastie wrote:How about the day after pill? Infanticide?


If it's intentional killing of a child by his or her own parent(s), yes.
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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

the road to hana wrote:
beastie wrote:How about the day after pill? Infanticide?


If it's intentional killing of a child by his or her own parent(s), yes.


How about stem-cell research?

How about in-vitro fertilization (which produces an excess of fertilized eggs)?
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_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

beastie, I'm going to tack on here quickly, anticipating further questions from you on this line of discussion, since I'm turning in for the night soon.

I'm answering your questions as straightforwardly as I can from my own point of view. But I would add the caveat that the difficulty comes in legislating the criminality of certain acts that might lead to the death of a child in utero.

My own defense of a pro-choice position in the past has had primarily to do with the problem of criminalizing miscarriage or inadvertent death of an unborn child. Should a woman be prosecuted, say, if she smokes during pregnancy, resulting in the death of an unborn child? Drinks to excess? Uses drugs?

Should a husband or lover be prosecuted if he throws a woman down a flight of stairs, causing the death of an unborn child? If he hits her or abuses her in any way, leading to the death of a child? If the woman is maltreated or malnourished?

If a man and woman get into a shouting match during her pregnancy, and she miscarries as a result, should someone be prosecuted?

It seems to me that the difficulties in legislating the criminality of abortion is in distinguishing between spontaneous and procured abortion, and intent.

If a pharmaceutical is taken post-conception to end the process of life that has already begun, yes, that is intentional killing. A pharmaceutical taken prior to conception to prevent conception might be considered morally objectionable by some in terms of preventing life, but it would not be considered infanticide or intentional ending of a life.

The reason this is all so difficult is that no one can agree exactly when human life begins, and in the absence of being able to definitively determine that, it seems to me that it is reasonable, appropriate and exercising good caution to place it all the way back at the time of conception, since scientifically it is proven that human life begins on its accelerated growth process at that moment.

I'm aware of no other use for the morning-after pill other than ending life, rather than preventing it.
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_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

asbestosman wrote:
the road to hana wrote:
beastie wrote:How about the day after pill? Infanticide?


If it's intentional killing of a child by his or her own parent(s), yes.


How about stem-cell research?

How about in-vitro fertilization (which produces an excess of fertilized eggs)?


If either of those involve the intentional killing of a child by his or her own parents either in utero or extra utero, yes. You can apply the same standard to any other question you might have regarding my use of the term.
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