Question for the atheist converts

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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

the road to hana wrote:
asbestosman wrote:How about stem-cell research?

How about in-vitro fertilization (which produces an excess of fertilized eggs)?


If either of those involve the intentional killing of a child by his or her own parents either in utero or extra utero, yes. You can apply the same standard to any other question you might have regarding my use of the term.

Indeed I have and I have determined that is not the intentional killing of a child by his or her parents. I don't consider a fertilized egg to be a child and I don't consider IVF nor stem-cell research to be the intentional killing of any life although some death is likely to occur.

I was curious about how you apply that standard to those situations.
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_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

asbestosman wrote:
the road to hana wrote:
asbestosman wrote:How about stem-cell research?

How about in-vitro fertilization (which produces an excess of fertilized eggs)?


If either of those involve the intentional killing of a child by his or her own parents either in utero or extra utero, yes. You can apply the same standard to any other question you might have regarding my use of the term.

Indeed I have and I have determined that is not the intentional killing of a child by his or her parents. I don't consider a fertilized egg to be a child and I don't consider IVF nor stem-cell research to be the intentional killing of any life although some death is likely to occur.

I was curious about how you apply that standard to those situations.


I thought I had successfully answered that, but if I wasn't clear enough, I'll attempt to clarify.

If it is the intent to destroy a fertilized embryo at any time post conception by the parent(s), thereby terminating life, I would apply the term and would consider that intentional killing of a child by his or her parents.

If the stem cell research in question involves that, I would apply the term.

If selective reduction or destruction of fertilized embryos is involved, I would apply the term.

I'm not exactly clear on what you mean by "some death." Intentional killing does result in death. Unintentional killing results in death. Not some death. Death.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

asbestosman wrote:
the road to hana wrote:
asbestosman wrote:How about stem-cell research?

How about in-vitro fertilization (which produces an excess of fertilized eggs)?


If either of those involve the intentional killing of a child by his or her own parents either in utero or extra utero, yes. You can apply the same standard to any other question you might have regarding my use of the term.

Indeed I have and I have determined that is not the intentional killing of a child by his or her parents.


Are you suggesting then that it is unintentional killing, since you acknowledge that it is killing? Or simply uninformed killing? Do you believe the people involved are unaware that human life is destroyed in the process?
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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

the road to hana wrote:Are you suggesting then that it is unintentional killing, since you acknowledge that it is killing? Or simply uninformed killing? Do you believe the people involved are unaware that human life is destroyed in the process?

Sorry for not being clear. I had in mind "unintentional killing".

By "some death" I had in mind that while death occurs, death is not the intent of the processes I spoke of and that such proceses could continue to be valuable without death being involved as is currently the case. Also since I do not consider a fertilized egg to be fully human I had in mind death of something that was not quite human (or at least has some question about whether it is a person). I realize you disagree with me on that point and perhaps some day I will change my mind there. I really don't wish to argue that point. I just wanted to see what your througts were.

I also think that the process of trying to become pregnant often involves unintentional killing for some couples who are perhaps more prone to miscarriages or perhaps otherwise have difficulty with getting the fertilized egg to implant in a safe place. That this might possible be minimized under special circumstances does not necessarily imply to me that all measure should be taken to minimize those chances no matter how extreme the measures.

Those are merely my thoughts on the matter--at least for now.
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_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

asbestosman wrote:
the road to hana wrote:Are you suggesting then that it is unintentional killing, since you acknowledge that it is killing? Or simply uninformed killing? Do you believe the people involved are unaware that human life is destroyed in the process?

Sorry for not being clear. I had in mind "unintentional killing".

By "some death" I had in mind that while death occurs, death is not the intent of the processes I spoke of and that such proceses could continue to be valuable without death being involved as is currently the case.


In cases where death is not involved, I have no difficulty. While it might be "unintentional killing," it is likely "informed killing." That is, the people involved are informed that death is a result of the action. In the fullest sense of that, it's difficult to call it "unintentional killing." "Killing without malice," perhaps, but certainly intentional.

Also since I do not consider a fertilized egg to be fully human I had in mind death of something that was not quite human (or at least has some question about whether it is a person). I realize you disagree with me on that point and perhaps some day I will change my mind there. I really don't wish to argue that point. I just wanted to see what your througts were.


We're really waltzing into the realm of two different lines of debate and discussion here. One involves medical/scientific considerations, and the other involves the theological. What consitutes "not fully human" is debatable in both realms. One could argue that an infant in "not fully human," that a toddler is "not fully human," or even that a pre-pubescent child is "not fully human." One could argue that a disabled or deformed child or adult is "not fully human."

It seems to me theologians when pondering the state of the soul as part of the human life have wondered when the soul or spirit enters as part of the whole religious debate over abortion. No doubt there was a time when theologians assumed the body was animated by a soul or spirit initially at birth, and subsequently that point has been pushed back in utero. But even religious humans who believe that human life has a soul does not necessarily discount the value of animal life that ithey consider to be without it.

I also think that the process of trying to become pregnant often involves unintentional killing for some couples who are perhaps more prone to miscarriages or perhaps otherwise have difficulty with getting the fertilized egg to implant in a safe place. That this might possible be minimized under special circumstances does not necessarily imply to me that all measure should be taken to minimize those chances no matter how extreme the measures.


Again, those goes to intent. The process of natural (non-medically manipulated) conception and attempts at the same does frequently involve unsuccessful pregnancies, and clearly, it is not the intent of the parents to lose these pregnancies. Those with compromised fertility will frequently avail themselves, if they can afford it, of medical advances in the field in order to increase their chances of pregnancy and successful childbirth. These are not always successful. Those means that involve as a byproduct the death of a child are most unfortunate and hopefully at some point in the not-too-distant medical future they can be completely avoided. I could not myself be involved in selective reduction of fetuses or creation of extra embryos extra utero with the knowledge that some would ultimately be destroyed or used for some purpose other than the natural development of a human being.

I appreciate your own thoughts on the subject and assure you it has taken me many years to come to this particular line of thinking, which to me is the only way I can now see it. I don't believe medical advances are or should be dependent on intentional killing, although it might seem to be the case to some in the short run. [/quote]

Those are merely my thoughts on the matter--at least for now.[/quote]

Much appreciated.
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_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

the road to hana wrote:
I'm aware of no other use for the morning-after pill other than ending life, rather than preventing it.


How is preventing life any different than ending it... Morally speaking?
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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »


I'm answering your questions as straightforwardly as I can from my own point of view. But I would add the caveat that the difficulty comes in legislating the criminality of certain acts that might lead to the death of a child in utero.

My own defense of a pro-choice position in the past has had primarily to do with the problem of criminalizing miscarriage or inadvertent death of an unborn child. Should a woman be prosecuted, say, if she smokes during pregnancy, resulting in the death of an unborn child? Drinks to excess? Uses drugs?

Should a husband or lover be prosecuted if he throws a woman down a flight of stairs, causing the death of an unborn child? If he hits her or abuses her in any way, leading to the death of a child? If the woman is maltreated or malnourished?

If a man and woman get into a shouting match during her pregnancy, and she miscarries as a result, should someone be prosecuted?

It seems to me that the difficulties in legislating the criminality of abortion is in distinguishing between spontaneous and procured abortion, and intent.

If a pharmaceutical is taken post-conception to end the process of life that has already begun, yes, that is intentional killing. A pharmaceutical taken prior to conception to prevent conception might be considered morally objectionable by some in terms of preventing life, but it would not be considered infanticide or intentional ending of a life.

The reason this is all so difficult is that no one can agree exactly when human life begins, and in the absence of being able to definitively determine that, it seems to me that it is reasonable, appropriate and exercising good caution to place it all the way back at the time of conception, since scientifically it is proven that human life begins on its accelerated growth process at that moment.

I'm aware of no other use for the morning-after pill other than ending life, rather than preventing it.


It seems to me that if abortion is murder, the fact that it can be difficult to ascertain intentionality should have nothing to do with actually criminalizing it. After all, it can be equally difficult to ascertain intentionality in cases where a killing of a human being OUTSIDE the womb has taken place, hence, the sliding scale of intentionality is reflected in the various legal labels that can be applied.

So now that I more fully understand your position, I’m also interested in your answer to the question posed to dart by John Larsen earlier in this thread:

An 18 year old woman goes to a doctor who performs an abortion. In your perfect world, what would you have society do to this young woman and the doctor?


This is the main question I’d like answered, so if you’re pressed for time, I’d appreciate you addressing that one first, but I’m going to add some more thoughts as well.

You said:
The reason this is all so difficult is that no one can agree exactly when human life begins, and in the absence of being able to definitively determine that, it seems to me that it is reasonable, appropriate and exercising good caution to place it all the way back at the time of conception, since scientifically it is proven that human life begins on its accelerated growth process at that moment.


Are contraceptives that simply prevent implantation, versus preventing conception, a form of murder?

Why discount the sperm and ovum themselves? It seems to me that this would be the level where it all actually begins, naturally speaking (of course with scientific advances it could begin with other cells). Since no one knows when the “soul” enters the body, perhaps the souls are already in the sperm, as people did once believe. It certainly is not more ridiculous, or scientifically unlikely than to suppose that the “soul” enters a blastocyst. Is it morally wrong for a man to masturbate for this reason? Is he guilty of murder? And as others have pointed out, why is preventing a life different than stopping the growth of that life? Are people who engage in birth control engaging in a form of murder?

You had earlier given the impression that your thoughts in this matter were the result of scientific study alone, but since you have begun to refer to the soul entering the body, I’d like some expansion on this. What is your religious viewpoint? Are you a believer, and have your religious beliefs influenced your position on abortion?

Next, do you believe we should allow abortion to save the life of the mother?

And, finally, I’m going to ask a question about something I referred to earlier: if a “clinic” in your neighborhood was, with parental permission, gathering up five year olds and killing them, and for some reason society said this was legal, what action would you consider morally justifiable to stop it?
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_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

antishock8 wrote:
the road to hana wrote:
I'm aware of no other use for the morning-after pill other than ending life, rather than preventing it.


How is preventing life any different than ending it... Morally speaking?


Let's see. Do you equate your daughter practicing abstinence in order to avoid an unplanned pregnancy with someone killing another person morally? Do you teach her that one is good, and the other is bad? Avoiding the pregnancy through appropriate, reasonable and mature choices is not the same thing as taking a life that already exists. To my mind, that's just responsible living.
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Post by _the road to hana »

beastie wrote:So now that I more fully understand your position, I’m also interested in your answer to the question posed to dart by John Larsen earlier in this thread:

An 18 year old woman goes to a doctor who performs an abortion. In your perfect world, what would you have society do to this young woman and the doctor?


This is the main question I’d like answered, so if you’re pressed for time, I’d appreciate you addressing that one first, but I’m going to add some more thoughts as well.


In a perfect world, abortion wouldn't exist except as a medically necessary procedure that would be safe and legal.

That established, in the same perfect world you're hypothetically asking me to create, I'd have to respond as follows:

An 18-year-old woman is a minor. I'd want to know the reasons for the abortion. If it was simply to avoid responsibility, or scandal, rather than medically necessary, then I'd consider it a criminal offense, and the parents of the woman, the parents of the father of the child, and the father of the child also partially responsible.

In my perfect world, the woman seeking the abortion would be provided medical expenses and state supported adoption instead of being able to receive the abortion. Again, her parents and his would be partially financially responsible. If her reasons for seeking an abortion as remedy was financial, I'd put her in touch with financial support counseling.

I would have mandatory post-abortion counseling for anyone who procured an abortion, and mandatory community service as a volunteer in something related, like adoption services or disabled or underprivileged children. I'd consider mandatory sterilization for anyone procuring an abortion for reasons other than medical necessity, particularly if it were on a repeat basis.

I would have any physician who performed an abortion for reasons other than medical necessity lose his or her license to practice medicine for a minimum of a year, accompanied by a punitive fine ($50,000-100,000) and/or mandatory underwriting of adoption expenses for a couple unable to have a child.
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Post by _beastie »

I probably shouldn't post again until I give you time to respond to my other questions, but I'm on spring break and wasting time to avoid my chores. You can ignore this post until you have time to address my other points, but I'm going to go ahead and post it before I forget.

An 18-year-old woman is a minor. I'd want to know the reasons for the abortion. If it was simply to avoid responsibility, or scandal, rather than medically necessary, then I'd consider it a criminal offense, and the parents of the woman, the parents of the father of the child, and the father of the child also partially responsible.

In my perfect world, the woman seeking the abortion would be provided medical expenses and state supported adoption instead of being able to receive the abortion. Again, her parents and his would be partially financially responsible. If her reasons for seeking an abortion as remedy was financial, I'd put her in touch with financial support counseling.

I would have mandatory post-abortion counseling for anyone who procured an abortion, and mandatory community service as a volunteer in something related, like adoption services or disabled or underprivileged children. I'd consider mandatory sterilization for anyone procuring an abortion for reasons other than medical necessity, particularly if it were on a repeat basis.

I would have any physician who performed an abortion for reasons other than medical necessity lose his or her license to practice medicine for a minimum of a year, accompanied by a punitive fine ($50,000-100,000) and/or mandatory underwriting of adoption expenses for a couple unable to have a child.


Do you live in the US? An 18 year old is not a minor in the US. I’m going to assume that since an 18 year old is not a legal minor in the US, your answer would be that the woman would be charged with a criminal offense, as well as the father of the child.

So what sentence would you recommend, in your ideal world?

Your answer regarding the physician seems problematic in terms of your stance that abortion, at any stage, is murder (infanticide). If a physician were killing two year olds would you recommend that he/she lose their license and be punished with fines??

If abortion really is murder, why, in your ideal world, are you actually treating it very differently than murder?
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