Question for the atheist converts

[_the road to hana]

The stats clearly show a positive correlation between poverty and abortion rates.

That's a completely separate social issue that clearly needs to be addressed.

I agree, it needs to be addressed and I did so in this thread for a few reasons. Too often in these threads it comes down to the lives of the unborn and we completely neglect to discuss who is actually pregnant. There's ALWAYS talk about the women in vague terms (they should be more careful, they made a poor decision, etc...) and yet, people apparently don't like hearing the facts about who these women actually are.

Would you support mandatory sterilization for women on welfare who habitually obtain abortions as an alternative to birth control?

I think whether it be a child or a grown woman that the only one that should make this decision is her.

Should a minor child be able to make all other medical decisions on their own behalf?

Should an adult force a child to keep an unwanted pregnancy or force a child to terminate the pregnancy? Let's stick to the topic of abortion. :)

"Unwanted," in what sense? Would "inconvenient" be a better term? If the pregnant mother is too young to responsibly care for the child herself, but her parents (or the father's parents) are willing to provide support and raise it, that should not be eliminated as an option. Giving the child up for adoption should not be eliminated as an option.

Should an adult force a child to terminate a pregnancy? No, not unless there was medical necessity. You're advocating for one child here, and not advocating for the other.

[_GoodK]

If abortion is murder, as some have asserted here, why not punish mothers with life in prison or a similar fitting punishment given the seriousness of the crime?

Do those that oppose a woman's right to abort a pregnancy also favor punishment for those that manage to abort the pregnancy, or just the lack of freedom to do so?

[Guest]

If abortion is murder, as some have asserted here, why not punish mothers with life in prison or a similar fitting punishment given the seriousness of the crime?

Do those that oppose a woman's right to abort a pregnancy also favor punishment for those that manage to abort the pregnancy, or just the lack of freedom to do so?

(deleted)

[Guest]

The stats clearly show a positive correlation between poverty and abortion rates.

That's a completely separate social issue that clearly needs to be addressed.

I agree, it needs to be addressed and I did so in this thread for a few reasons. Too often in these threads it comes down to the lives of the unborn and we completely neglect to discuss who is actually pregnant. There's ALWAYS talk about the women in vague terms (they should be more careful, they made a poor decision, etc...) and yet, people apparently don't like hearing the facts about who these women actually are.

Would you support mandatory sterilization for women on welfare who habitually obtain abortions as an alternative to birth control?

I think whether it be a child or a grown woman that the only one that should make this decision is her.

Should a minor child be able to make all other medical decisions on their own behalf?

Should an adult force a child to keep an unwanted pregnancy or force a child to terminate the pregnancy? Let's stick to the topic of abortion. :)

"Unwanted," in what sense?

That the woman/child pregnant does not desire to be pregnant.

If the pregnant mother is too young to responsibly care for the child herself, but her parents (or the father's parents) are willing to provide support and raise it, that should not be eliminated as an option. Giving the child up for adoption should not be eliminated as an option.

Of course they shouldn't be eliminated as options. I think I spoke about those options earlier. Yet, the woman/child should be allowed to make her own choice.

Should an adult force a child to terminate a pregnancy? No, not unless there was medical necessity. You're advocating for one child here, and not advocating for the other.

How did you possibly construe my comments to suggest I'm advocating for one child and NOT the other?? I'm advocating for WHATEVER choice the pregnant woman/child wants. All 3 options -- keep, place for adoption, or abort -- are available and the woman/child making the decision should be fully informed as to her choices.

How about this?

Child A tells parents and they force her to carry to term and they raise the child or forced to place for adoption. Is that okay?
Child B tells parents and they force her to have an abortion (not medically necessary). Is that okay?

I'm not advocating for either of those scenarios.

[_GoodK]

If abortion is murder, as some have asserted here, why not punish mothers with life in prison or a similar fitting punishment given the seriousness of the crime?

Do those that oppose a woman's right to abort a pregnancy also favor punishment for those that manage to abort the pregnancy, or just the lack of freedom to do so?

I believe I've addressed both of these issues up-thread.

You aren't the only one here...

[_the road to hana]

"Unwanted," in what sense?

That the woman/child pregnant does not desire to be pregnant.

It's a natural consequence of the action. She might not desire to be drunk if she drinks, either. Does she "not want to be pregnant" because it's inconvenient? Because she's irresponsible? If she's too young to be a mother, she's too young to be sexually active and engaging in unprotected sex. Making abortion like a delete button is problematic.

Yet, the woman/child should be allowed to make her own choice.

I would disagree. A minor child does not get to make her own choices about any of her medical care, and she does have parents/guardians for a reason.

construe my comments to suggest I'm advocating for one child and NOT the other?? I'm advocating for WHATEVER choice the pregnant woman/child wants.

That is advocating for one child (the teen mother) and not the other (the unborn child).

How about this?

Child A tells parents and they force her to carry to term and they raise the child or forced to place for adoption. Is that okay?

It's a natural consequence of action. I don't think killing the child should be an available option. I would resist your use of the word "force." Do parents force their children to eat? To go to school? To go to bed at night? To get a tonsillectomy, if it's medically indicated?

I think in cases of teen pregnancy where the family of either the birth father or mother are unable to assume responsibility for the unborn child, the state should support adoption.

Child B tells parents and they force her to have an abortion (not medically necessary). Is that okay?

No. I answered both of these above in a previous post.

[_antishock8]

I'm aware of no other use for the morning-after pill other than ending life, rather than preventing it.

How is preventing life any different than ending it... Morally speaking?

Let's see. Do you equate your daughter practicing abstinence in order to avoid an unplanned pregnancy with someone killing another person morally? Do you teach her that one is good, and the other is bad? Avoiding the pregnancy through appropriate, reasonable and mature choices is not the same thing as taking a life that already exists. To my mind, that's just responsible living.

How is preventing life any different than ending it... Morally speaking?

Asked and answered above.

Nope.

[_GoodK]

If she's too young to be a mother, she's too young to be sexually active and engaging in unprotected sex. Making abortion like a delete button is problematic.

This is what it all comes down to. Preventing people from having sex.

This is not about the right and wrong with abortion, it's about the right and wrong of unprotected sex.

[Guest]

"Unwanted," in what sense?

That the woman/child pregnant does not desire to be pregnant.

It's a natural consequence of the action. She might not desire to be drunk if she drinks, either. Does she "not want to be pregnant" because it's inconvenient? Because she's irresponsible? If she's too young to be a mother, she's too young to be sexually active and engaging in unprotected sex. Making abortion like a delete button is problematic.

I agree that making abortion like a delete button is problematic! That's why I support these clinics that put these women on birth control. Do you want me to attempt to answer your question about a "she" as if I can peer into each one of these women? I know women that are separated from their abusive husbands (I volunteer at an abused women's shelter) sometimes make the choice to abort when they leave. I can tell you why they make the choice. I can tell you why some young friends of mine did. I could tell you stories... surely you don't expect me to know every single instance of why someone makes this decision?

Yet, the woman/child should be allowed to make her own choice.

I would disagree. A minor child does not get to make her own choices about any of her medical care, and she does have parents/guardians for a reason.

So, you're okay with a parent forcing a child to get an abortion then?

construe my comments to suggest I'm advocating for one child and NOT the other?? I'm advocating for WHATEVER choice the pregnant woman/child wants.

That is advocating for one child (the teen mother) and not the other (the unborn child).

Because one is someone that is actually fully human -- has dreams, fears, hopes, etc... The other does not. Why would I choose to advocate for something that does not have any quality of being a human over someone that does?

How about this?

Child A tells parents and they force her to carry to term and they raise the child or forced to place for adoption. Is that okay?

It's a natural consequence of action. I don't think killing the child should be an available option. I would resist your use of the word "force." Do parents force their children to eat? To go to school? To go to bed at night? To get a tonsillectomy, if it's medically indicated?

I think in cases of teen pregnancy where the family of either the birth father or mother are unable to assume responsibility for the unborn child, the state should support adoption.

So, you would force a teen to carry the pregnancy to term and then place for adoption?

Do you want to punish women for poor choices? This is what it usually comes down to, it seems. Women have sex and those that are against abortion always talk about natural consequences. I think the state adopting a child is a HORRIBLE idea! Ever been to a group home or seen some kids in foster care???? (OH I HAVE STORIES!!! :) Just take the child from the girl or young woman? Force her to carry the child to term and then the state takes the child? This sounds draconian!

Child B tells parents and they force her to have an abortion (not medically necessary). Is that okay?

No. I answered both of these above in a previous post.

Well, that's the problem. You are OKAY with a parent making the medical decision for the child that lines up with YOUR decision. Right?

[_Moniker]

If she's too young to be a mother, she's too young to be sexually active and engaging in unprotected sex. Making abortion like a delete button is problematic.

This is what it all comes down to. Preventing people from having sex.

This is not about the right and wrong with abortion, it's about the right and wrong of unprotected sex.

Yep! It ALWAYS comes down to punishment for sex.