Question for the atheist converts

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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

Hana, please forgive me this question. You seem to be getting hit pretty hard right now and that's not my intent.

the road to hana wrote:and if you're going to the issue of recklessness, I don't think it applies unless the point of the impregnation is to terminate it, which I can't imagine is the case in couples attempting to conceive.

Well, leaving small things on the floor probably isn't done to terminate the life of a child but it is reckless. Likewise, conceiving in risky conditions is not done to terminate the pregnancy. However, one obvious difference between these two situations is that the child would continue to live if it hadn't choked on on a small item that was recklessly left out wheras the miscarried fetus wouldn't have even existed in the first place had the couple not tried to produce it. On the other hand, I'm not sure I see as much of a difference between a couple conceiving under risky conditions and a couple who conceives by IVF. Is it that the IVF couple does not have the intention of carrying all fertilized ovums to term (even though they have that intention for any individual one as they create it) wheras the couple conceiving by natural means has the intention of carrying all fertilized ovums to term and would do so if nature didn't get in the way? Or is the difference perhaps that one issue is caused by nature while the other is caused by man's fiddling with nature and therefore is more responsible for the results?

Also, I'm curious as to why you don't consider a teratoma or a fetus in fetu to be human. Is it because they are not viable on their own after 9 months of gestation? I've tried to read this whole thread, but I could have missed something and if so I apologize.
Last edited by Analytics on Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

On that particular situation, I'd disagree with you, in the sense that Ms. Schiavo, while she might have been disabled, was certainly alive, and what the spouse wanted permission to do was to accelerate her death, not allow her to die a natural death. Depriving her of food and water was to my mind inhumane, and she should have been allowed to be a ward of the state, if not her parents. It does appear to me that his motivations were at least in part financial, and I believe the state should have a vested interest in intervening when family members choose to end life for financial reasons.


I think this is likely the crux of our fundamental disagreement. What constitutes human life? Is it just the right DNA, no matter how it is packaged?

Terri Schiavo was not just disabled. Her brain had been permanently damaged, in a way that would disallow any "Terri" to still be there. Her body was a shell. To me, this is, indeed, deification of "life" - her body had to be maintained, like an empty shell, a shrine?? Terri was not there. Whatever made Terri be Terri was not there. Whatever makes us "human" was no longer there, just like it is not there for a blastocyst.

I disagree that this constitutes reverence for life. To me, reverence for life would seem to include a willingness to recognize when life is gone, and it's time to let it go. To be brutally frank, to keep Terri's body alive in that way seems almost obscene to me.

If you have not read Carl Sagan's essay on abortion, I wish you would. This is the very issue he deals with, because reality is that most people who oppose abortion aren't seeking to protect all animal life, but rather seeking to protect HUMAN life. So what is it that makes us human?

http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml

There is no right to life in any society on Earth today, nor has there been at any former time… : We raise farm animals for slaughter; destroy forests; pollute rivers and lakes until no fish can live there; kill deer and elk for sport, leopards for the pelts, and whales for fertilizer; entrap dolphins, gasping and writhing, in great tuna nets; club seal pups to death; and render a species extinct every day. All these beasts and vegetables are as alive as we. What is (allegedly) protected is not life, but human life.

And even with that protection, casual murder is an urban commonplace, and we wage “conventional” wars with tolls so terrible that we are, most of us, afraid to consider them very deeply… That protection, that right to life, eludes the 40,000 children under five who die on our planet each day from preventable starvation, dehydration, disease, and neglect.

Those who assert a "right to life" are for (at most) not just any kind of life, but for--particularly and uniquely—human life. So they too, like pro-choicers, must decide what distinguishes a human being from other animals and when, during gestation, the uniquely human qualities--whatever they are--emerge.

Despite many claims to the contrary, life does not begin at conception: It is an unbroken chain that stretches back nearly to the origin of the Earth, 4.6 billion years ago. Nor does human life begin at conception: It is an unbroken chain dating back to the origin of our species, hundreds of thousands of years ago. Every human sperm and egg is, beyond the shadow of a doubt, alive. They are not human beings, of course. However, it could be argued that neither is a fertilized egg.

In some animals, an egg develops into a healthy adult without benefit of a sperm cell. But not, so far as we know, among humans. A sperm and an unfertilized egg jointly comprise the full genetic blueprint for a human being. Under certain circumstances, after fertilization, they can develop into a baby. But most fertilized eggs are spontaneously miscarried. Development into a baby is by no means guaranteed. Neither a sperm and egg separately, nor a fertilized egg, is more than a potential baby or a potential adult. So if a sperm and egg are as human as the fertilized egg produced by their union, and if it is murder to destroy a fertilized egg--despite the fact that it's only potentially a baby--why isn't it murder to destroy a sperm or an egg?

Hundreds of millions of sperm cells (top speed with tails lashing: five inches per hour) are produced in an average human ejaculation. A healthy young man can produce in a week or two enough spermatozoa to double the human population of the Earth. So is masturbation mass murder? How about nocturnal emissions or just plain sex? When the unfertilized egg is expelled each month, has someone died? Should we mourn all those spontaneous miscarriages? Many lower animals can be grown in a laboratory from a single body cell. Human cells can be cloned… In light of such cloning technology, would we be committing mass murder by destroying any potentially clonable cells? By shedding a drop of blood?

All human sperm and eggs are genetic halves of "potential" human beings. Should heroic efforts be made to save and preserve all of them, everywhere, because of this "potential"? Is failure to do so immoral or criminal? Of course, there's a difference between taking a life and failing to save it. And there's a big difference between the probability of survival of a sperm cell and that of a fertilized egg. But the absurdity of a corps of high-minded semen-preservers moves us to wonder whether a fertilized egg's mere "potential" to become a baby really does make destroying it murder.

Opponents of abortion worry that, once abortion is permissible immediately after conception, no argument will restrict it at any later time in the pregnancy. Then, they fear, one day it will be permissible to murder a fetus that is unambiguously a human being. Both pro-choicers and pro-lifers (at least some of them) are pushed toward absolutist positions by parallel fears of the slippery slope.

Another slippery slope is reached by those pro-lifers who are willing to make an exception in the agonizing case of a pregnancy resulting from rape or incest. But why should the right to live depend on the circumstances of conception? If the same child were to result, can the state ordain life for the offspring of a lawful union but death for one conceived by force or coercion? How can this be just? And if exceptions are extended to such a fetus, why should they be withheld from any other fetus? This is part of the reason some pro-lifers adopt what many others consider the outrageous posture of opposing abortions under any and all circumstances--only excepting, perhaps, when the life of the mother is in danger.


by the way, I'm unconvinced that, if abortion is murder, that abortion is morally justified even when the life of the mother is in danger. When else do we allow one person to be killed to save another?
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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

beastie wrote:When else do we allow one person to be killed to save another?

We allow it when one person is an immediate threat to others even if the death penalty otherwise would not apply (consider someone who is insane and therefore not responsible for his actions).
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_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

GoodK wrote:
the road to hana wrote: If she's too young to be a mother, she's too young to be sexually active and engaging in unprotected sex. Making abortion like a delete button is problematic.


This is what it all comes down to. Preventing people from having sex.

This is not about the right and wrong with abortion, it's about the right and wrong of unprotected sex.


Not at all. I have no intention of preventing people from having sex, married or unmarried.

I do think, however, it sends the wrong message to children that there is a delete button for everything. If a teenage mother gave birth to a child, and then decided she didn't want it, we wouldn't consider the death of that child an acceptable alternative.
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_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

antishock8 wrote:
the road to hana wrote:
antishock8 wrote:
the road to hana wrote:
antishock8 wrote:
the road to hana wrote:
I'm aware of no other use for the morning-after pill other than ending life, rather than preventing it.


How is preventing life any different than ending it... Morally speaking?


Let's see. Do you equate your daughter practicing abstinence in order to avoid an unplanned pregnancy with someone killing another person morally? Do you teach her that one is good, and the other is bad? Avoiding the pregnancy through appropriate, reasonable and mature choices is not the same thing as taking a life that already exists. To my mind, that's just responsible living.


How is preventing life any different than ending it... Morally speaking?


Asked and answered above.


Nope.


Yes. Twice.
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_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Is anyone else confused in discussions with Hannah when she uses the term "child" to refer to the unborn fetus/embryo? That's been slightly confusing for me!
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

We allow it when one person is an immediate threat to others even if the death penalty otherwise would not apply (consider someone who is insane and therefore not responsible for his actions).


But the "child" is totally innocent.
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_asbestosman
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Post by _asbestosman »

beastie wrote:
We allow it when one person is an immediate threat to others even if the death penalty otherwise would not apply (consider someone who is insane and therefore not responsible for his actions).


But the "child" is totally innocent.


So is the mentally insane if he doesn't understand his actions.
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_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

Moniker wrote:I could tell you stories... surely you don't expect me to know every single instance of why someone makes this decision?


No. I know plenty of people who've had abortions myself. I've consistently indicated that each situation is individual.


So, you're okay with a parent forcing a child to get an abortion then?

No. I've consistently answered no to that question in this thread.


Because one is someone that is actually fully human -- has dreams, fears, hopes, etc... The other does not. Why would I choose to advocate for something that does not have any quality of being a human over someone that does?


Because it has no one else to advocate for it, as it cannot advocate for itself. Otherwise, you are engaging in a slippery slope argument that could affect rights for disabled, infants and animals.

[

So, you would force a teen to carry the pregnancy to term and then place for adoption?


No. I thought I was clear on this one, too. I would make adoption available as an alternative where the families of the birth father and mother were unable or unwilling to care for the child.

Do you want to punish women for poor choices?


No, it might seem that way to you, but my interest is in the unborn child. How exactly is a woman "punished" for having a pregnancy as the natural consequence of mating?

I think the state adopting a child is a HORRIBLE idea!


I never suggested the state adopt the child. If you misunderstood and thought that, I apologize.

Ever been to a group home or seen some kids in foster care????


Yes, I am well aware.

(OH I HAVE STORIES!!! :)


As do I.

Just take the child from the girl or young woman?


Not at all.

Force her to carry the child to term and then the state takes the child? This sounds draconian!


You've clearly misunderstood me, as that was not at all what I said.

Well, that's the problem. You are OKAY with a parent making the medical decision for the child that lines up with YOUR decision. Right?


No, again you've misunderstood. I don't think you can have the parents be guardians of their minor child in all instances except this.
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_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

Moniker wrote:
GoodK wrote:
the road to hana wrote: If she's too young to be a mother, she's too young to be sexually active and engaging in unprotected sex. Making abortion like a delete button is problematic.


This is what it all comes down to. Preventing people from having sex.

This is not about the right and wrong with abortion, it's about the right and wrong of unprotected sex.


Yep! It ALWAYS comes down to punishment for sex.


No, it doesn't always. I make no judgments about other people's sexual activity. It's incorrect to paint me with that broad brush.
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