BCSpace please respond - your loophole refuted

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_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi BC,

Close.

1) I don't believe we are limited to a Fall date of 6000 years ago. However, I believe my theory works for that or for one much earlier.

2) Considering that Adam was kicked out of the Garden, the question is did this state of no death exist only for that which was in the Garden or all the rest of the world as well? I believe my theory can handle either way if.....

3) Another question is how long in the garden? A few days? A few years? 100's or 1000's of years? I tend towards the shorter end of the spectrum. In that case, there is no noticeable delay in ongoing evolution.


Hmmm...

So basically, there was a fallen world (four billion years of uncreated creation or rather a poopsnoozled time), then a week or a few years (could be more but the temple suggests Adam and Eve were adults when their spirits entered their primate bodies, and since everything was on hold until the fall why bother with more than a few hours or days), then back to the fallen world.

Why in the world even have a standstill? What is the point? Since the post apple world is exactly the same as the poopsnoozled world, why bother with the fruit, the fall, the standstill, or any of it?

I'm trying but I seriously do not get this whole thing.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

truth dancer wrote:So basically, there was a fallen world (four billion years of uncreated creation or rather a poopsnoozled time),


That's 'poopsnozzled', please.
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

Close.

1) I don't believe we are limited to a Fall date of 6000 years ago. However, I believe my theory works for that or for one much earlier.

2) Considering that Adam was kicked out of the Garden, the question is did this state of no death exist only for that which was in the Garden or all the rest of the world as well? I believe my theory can handle either way if.....

3) Another question is how long in the garden? A few days? A few years? 100's or 1000's of years? I tend towards the shorter end of the spectrum. In that case, there is no noticeable delay in ongoing evolution.


Hmmm...

So basically, there was a fallen world (four billion years of uncreated creation or rather a poopsnoozled time), then a week or a few years (could be more but the temple suggests Adam and Eve were adults when their spirits entered their primate bodies, and since everything was on hold until the fall why bother with more than a few hours or days), then back to the fallen world.


A possibility among many yes. The amount of time of no death was entirely dependent on Adam and Eve. As the scriptures state, if they had not partaken, they would have remained in that state.

Why in the world even have a standstill? What is the point? Since the post apple world is exactly the same as the poopsnoozled world, why bother with the fruit, the fall, the standstill, or any of it?


Agency.

I'm trying but I seriously do not get this whole thing.


Sorry. But I have been answering forthrightly. My guess is that you are hung up on details that don't matter and I'm not trying to address. On those, anyone's answer generally could fit just fine.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_truth dancer
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi BC,

I asked:

Why in the world even have a standstill? What is the point? Since the post apple world is exactly the same as the poopsnozzled world, why bother with the fruit, the fall, the standstill, or any of it?


To which you responded:

Agency.


Are you suggesting that for the millions of years primates and hominids existed prior to 6,000 years or so when human spirits entered the bodies of humans without actual spirits, they didn't have agency? They couldn't make choices?

Seems to me from your perspective, any choice specific to Eve and Adam would be more like deciding to continue evolution, or stopping it? Certainly they must have realized that the world had evolved for four billion years? There were obviously millions of human type beings all around them including their family no? Seems like a silly plan since the consequences of their choice, which of course God knew, were identical to the scenario we would have if the whole garden/fruit incident never occurred.

Another question, was the poopsnozzled world different than the post fruit world for animals?

Do you think the hominids and Homo Sapiens prior to Adam and Eve had spirits of any kind? Just not the same type of spirits as Adam and Eve or not the spirits created by HF and his "wives"? Animal spirits? If so, could there still be those who are alive that are descendants of those Homo Sapiens or did all those folks die off?

Thanks for explaining your theory! :-)


~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

reposting my post from the other thread:

Ok, so we have established that the Fall brought death into the world... now lets look at why:

What is the state of being in the presence of God? 1 Cor. 15:50 states that "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". Therefore nothing in heaven has blood in it.

When Christ appeared and the disciples handled him, he stated" Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have." (Luke 24:39) No blood there, just flesh and bone.

What Adam brought into the world with the Fall was blood. "The life of the flesh is in the blood" (Lev. 17:11) The mortal body lives on only so long as the blood is present. Spill the blood and mortality ceases. Hence, flesh and blood means mortality. Mortality cannot inherit a celestial world, for that is the dwelling place of immortal incorruptable beings.

No blood, no corruption, no evolution.


Further reading:
Gal. 5:19-21
1 Pet. 2:11

What we are to do with this body:
D&C 88: 1-41
D&C 93: 1-40
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

reposting my post from the other thread:


Responded to on the other thread.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_bcspace
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Posts: 18534
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Post by _bcspace »

Are you suggesting that for the millions of years primates and hominids existed prior to 6,000 years or so when human spirits entered the bodies of humans without actual spirits, they didn't have agency? They couldn't make choices?


Do animals have agency?

Keep in mind that in my theory, 'preAdamites', which may or may not physically be homo sapiens, do not have spirits that are literal spirit children of God as is LDS doctrine on what makes a 'man' or 'human'.

My theory is not intended to answer questions about the intelligence of or place of nonhumans (in the doctrinal sense) nor is there any need to.

Seems to me from your perspective, any choice specific to Eve and Adam would be more like deciding to continue evolution, or stopping it?


As an analogy, it could be seen that way. Either they remained in the garden and didn't progress or they continued to progress.

Certainly they must have realized that the world had evolved for four billion years?


I don't think they were in the garden that long and considering how ancient prophets described us and out day, it doesnot follow that Adam and Eve would have the same knowledge of science that we have.

There were obviously millions of human type beings all around them including their family no?


Logically implied yes. Who knows what was in the garden and how much Adam and eve could see out of it?

Seems like a silly plan since the consequences of their choice, which of course God knew, were identical to the scenario we would have if the whole garden/fruit incident never occurred.


Not at all. Without the garden, there would be no humans in the doctrinal sense. With the Fall, they could have children whose bodies are inhabited by spirit children of God.

Another question, was the poopsnozzled world different than the post fruit world for animals?


That seems to go to the quesiton of whether or not it was the whole world in that state or just the garden. I'm not sure on the answer to that. However, I do believe it likely that the pregarden world was essentially the same as the postgarden world except that the post garden world had humans (doctrinal definition) in it.

Do you think the hominids and Homo Sapiens prior to Adam and Eve had spirits of any kind?


Yes. LDS doctrine says all living things have spirits.

Just not the same type of spirits as Adam and Eve or not the spirits created by HF and his "wives"? Animal spirits? If so, could there still be those who are alive that are descendants of those Homo Sapiens or did all those folks die off?


Anything is possible. I trend towards the die out. Perhaps equipped with spirits that were literal spirit children of God, homo sapiens supplanted everything else. Perhaps (as seems to be the case), everything else had pretty much died out anyway.

Thanks for explaining your theory! :-)


You're welcome!
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_truth dancer
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Gaz,

Ok, so we have established that the Fall brought death into the world... now lets look at why:

What is the state of being in the presence of God? 1 Cor. 15:50 states that "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". Therefore nothing in heaven has blood in it.

When Christ appeared and the disciples handled him, he stated" Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have." (Luke 24:39) No blood there, just flesh and bone.

What Adam brought into the world with the Fall was blood. "The life of the flesh is in the blood" (Lev. 17:11) The mortal body lives on only so long as the blood is present. Spill the blood and mortality ceases. Hence, flesh and blood means mortality. Mortality cannot inherit a celestial world, for that is the dwelling place of immortal incorruptable beings.

No blood, no corruption, no evolution.


So, in your theory there was NO evolution? No blood in any creatures until Adam and Eve? Were there creatures without blood? Animals with spirits? Or was the world in the presence of God until the fall?

I'm sorry if I am not current with all the threads and theories but are you of the mind that all life started six thousand years or so ago?

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi BC,

In your theory, was the world in the presence of God (or unfallen) prior to the standstill? Or was it fallen, then not fallen during the standstill, then fallen again after the fruit?

Why would there have to be a standstill in order for God to put his spirit children into the bodies of the human/Homo Sapiens? Or are you thinking there had to be a standstill for Eve and Adam to decide to continue evolution?

It just seems like the whole fruit/fallen world/garden thing is useless... other than that brief (I'm sort of going with the temple portrayal here), standstill the post fruit is no different than the poopsnozzled world with the exception of actual spirit children placed in the bodies of humans rather than a regular Homo Sapien spirit inhabiting these bodies?

It seems weird to think that Even and Adam had spirits in their bodies that were non-(our type of) human, then the spirits must have died off or been cast out or something, and new spirits were placed in these same bodies.

I do have to say, I think your theory is one of the most original I have heard! :-)

What do you make of Gaz's idea? Do you think Eve and Adam brought with them blood?

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Brackite
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Post by _Brackite »

Gazelam wrote:reposting my post from the other thread:

Ok, so we have established that the Fall brought death into the world... now lets look at why:

What is the state of being in the presence of God? 1 Cor. 15:50 states that "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". Therefore nothing in heaven has blood in it.

When Christ appeared and the disciples handled him, he stated" Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have." (Luke 24:39) No blood there, just flesh and bone.

What Adam brought into the world with the Fall was blood. "The life of the flesh is in the blood" (Lev. 17:11) The mortal body lives on only so long as the blood is present. Spill the blood and mortality ceases. Hence, flesh and blood means mortality. Mortality cannot inherit a celestial world, for that is the dwelling place of immortal incorruptable beings.

No blood, no corruption, no evolution.


Further reading:
Gal. 5:19-21
1 Pet. 2:11

What we are to do with this body:
D&C 88: 1-41
D&C 93: 1-40


Hello Gazelam,

Please Also Check out this Article:

IS EVOLUTION COMPATIBLE WITH Mormon DOCTRINE?
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
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