Scientific Tests Of Christianity

[_Moniker]

Bcspace said there were some scientific tests to determine the validity of Christianity.

He proposed this as one from the Bible:

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

For some reason or another it reminded me of this:

Whenever in doubt, turn off your mind, relax, float downstream.

Anyway, so how precisely does this scientific method of determining the validity of Christianity's claims work? If I lack wisdom (would that be in knowledge or something to do with making decisions??) I ask God. Okay. First do I need to believe in God? Could I ask God if I should believe in God???

So, next step after the asking and sorting out whether God is "real":

Do I sit back and wait for God to give the answer? How does that work? How do I know when it's God? Will my intelligent quotient increase? Will I be able to speak in tongues? When is it determined that some knowledge was beamed into my brain antennae?

Then, how do we measure this????

[_asbestosman]

First do I need to believe in God? Could I ask God if I should believe in God???

While there are obvious epistimological problems with it, yet the Book of Mormon seems to indicate that one can indeed ask God if one should believe in God. From Alma 22
17 And it came to pass that when Aaron had said these words, the king did bow down before the Lord, upon his knees; yea, even he did prostrate himself upon the earth, and cried mightily, saying:
18 O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day. And now when the king had said these words, he was struck as if he were dead.

Will my intelligent quotient increase?

Nah, IQ is mostly bunk anyhow in my opinion.

Will I be able to speak in tongues?

You already speak a foreign tongue, Japanese, just I now speak a foreign tongue, Dutch.

Then, how do we measure this????

I suppose there are various ways. One would be to ask if it works in helping one find happiness. Does happiness equate to truth? No, I might be happier with the right drugs but I wouldn't consider that to equal truth. I'm not sure and I think it varies from person to person. Some people do seem to have knowledge beamed to their brains that they might not normally get (such as a feeling to move moments before lightning strikes in a house on a clear day).

[_Moniker]

First do I need to believe in God? Could I ask God if I should believe in God???

While there are obvious epistimological problems with it, yet the Book of Mormon seems to indicate that one can indeed ask God if one should believe in God. From Alma 22
17 And it came to pass that when Aaron had said these words, the king did bow down before the Lord, upon his knees; yea, even he did prostrate himself upon the earth, and cried mightily, saying:
18 O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day. And now when the king had said these words, he was struck as if he were dead.

So, what if one asks to know God and there's nada in the results department? Does the experiment end?

Will my intelligent quotient increase?

Nah, IQ is mostly bunk anyhow in my opinion.

Right... I was just being silly. You know I score high on those on-line tests and you score all over the place -- reliable -- NOT! :)

Will I be able to speak in tongues?

You already speak a foreign tongue, Japanese, just I now speak a foreign tongue, Dutch.

Well, WHAT precisely happens? You ask for "wisdom", so what is that? BCSpace said this was a scientific test! So what precisely is the wisdom one is seeking? I was throwing out a few options.

Then, how do we measure this????

I suppose there are various ways. One would be to ask if it works in helping one find happiness. Does happiness equate to truth? No, I might be happier with the right drugs but I wouldn't consider that to equal truth. I'm not sure and I think it varies from person to person. Some people do seem to have knowledge beamed to their brains that they might not normally get (such as a feeling to move moments before lightning strikes in a house on a clear day).

Right, is it beamed into their brain or is it their unconscious alerting them to danger? My father in Vietnam heard "DUCK!" (not the quacking kind) quite clearly and he followed these directions and a bullet flew right over him and struck the soldier behind him. He's not a fellow prone to supernatural explanations, no one had yelled that out -- yet, he HEARD it. Something alerted him to danger... was it God? Or was it that there were a series of things his mind picked up on (did he hear the bullet coming, did he actually hear it being fired although not necessarily aware that he had??) that alerted him to danger?

So, if we avoid catastrophes even without seeking God's guidance this doesn't really point to God, does it? It seems that one that already looked to God for answers would attribute these seemingly amazing events to God.

You mention truth. What type of truth are you speaking of here? In the realm of knowing God and His will? Is this what it comes down to for this test? We ask God, essentially, for guidance and He will deliver if you ask earnestly?

[_asbestosman]

So, what if one asks to know God and there's nada in the results department? Does the experiment end?

Well, a repetition might be a good idea just as it took Edison many failures before making a lightbulb. Even then, I think someitmes there comes a point when one should give up on trying to make gold out of lead.

Well, WHAT precisely happens? You ask for "wisdom", so what is that? BCSpace said this was a scientific test! So what precisely is the wisdom one is seeking? I was throwing out a few options.

Joseph Smith was seeking for God's will on the matter of which church to join. Seeking God's will on matters is the wisdom we should seek for most. Foreign languages are fun, but they're hardly as important as many other things such as knowing whether God wants us to be careful about damaging the planet or wishes us to focus our efforts on fighting slavery or whatnot.

Right, is it beamed into their brain or is it their unconscious alerting them to danger? My father in Vietnam heard "DUCK!" (not the quacking kind) quite clearly and he followed these directions and a bullet flew right over him and struck the soldier behind him. He's not a fellow prone to supernatural explanations, no one had yelled that out -- yet, he HEARD it. Something alerted him to danger... was it God? Or was it that there were a series of things his mind picked up on (did he hear the bullet coming, did he actually hear it being fired although not necessarily aware that he had??) that alerted him to danger?

Bullets travel faster than the speed of sound. You can't hear them being fired until it's too late although you can hear missiles or cannon balls being fired. You can also hear a neighbor bullet being fired as an automatic weapon starts pointing towards you and you could possibly be aware of the sounds or sight of the enemy getting ready to shoot.

So, if we avoid catastrophes even without seeking God's guidance this doesn't really point to God, does it? It seems that one that already looked to God for answers would attribute these seemingly amazing events to God.

It's possible it was God--I believe God protects the non-religious at times too. I also believe it's possible that there is a natural explanation. I don't know--I wasn't there. Furthrmore I believe that God doesn't tend to prove He exists but only drops little hints that add up to evidence for him when taken together.

You mention truth. What type of truth are you speaking of here? In the realm of knowing God and His will? Is this what it comes down to for this test? We ask God, essentially, for guidance and He will deliver if you ask earnestly?

Essentially yes, it is to seek God's will.

[_Moniker]

So, what if one asks to know God and there's nada in the results department? Does the experiment end?

Well, a repetition might be a good idea just as it took Edison many failures before making a lightbulb. Even then, I think someitmes there comes a point when one should give up on trying to make gold out of lead.

Well, WHAT precisely happens? You ask for "wisdom", so what is that? BCSpace said this was a scientific test! So what precisely is the wisdom one is seeking? I was throwing out a few options.

Joseph Smith was seeking for God's will on the matter of which church to join. Seeking God's will on matters is the wisdom we should seek for most. Foreign languages are fun, but they're hardly as important as many other things such as knowing whether God wants us to be careful about damaging the planet or wishes us to focus our efforts on fighting slavery or whatnot.

Well, I hate to be blunt here -- yet, if all these people seek God's will are getting different "wisdom", that contradicts one another, how does that possibly support the notion that it is God giving them the wisdom? How do you know it's God and not just your own thoughts? In your other thread there is talk about conservatism in Christianity -- there are splits when it comes to policy issues. So, if they all think they're following His will and seeking guidance which one is correct? How do we KNOW which one is correct? Do we ask God which one is correct? What if God says one thing to me and something else to you?

Right, is it beamed into their brain or is it their unconscious alerting them to danger? My father in Vietnam heard "DUCK!" (not the quacking kind) quite clearly and he followed these directions and a bullet flew right over him and struck the soldier behind him. He's not a fellow prone to supernatural explanations, no one had yelled that out -- yet, he HEARD it. Something alerted him to danger... was it God? Or was it that there were a series of things his mind picked up on (did he hear the bullet coming, did he actually hear it being fired although not necessarily aware that he had??) that alerted him to danger?

Bullets travel faster than the speed of sound. You can't hear them being fired until it's too late although you can hear missiles or cannon balls being fired. You can also hear a neighbor bullet being fired as an automatic weapon starts pointing towards you and you could possibly be aware of the sounds or sight of the enemy getting ready to shoot.

Maybe he heard it clipping through the leaves or something? I don't know. I'll tell you what my father is the most somber man I know and that is something that still gives him pause. I think some things are coincidences and other things are just things that we don't recognize are part of our patterns of some sort. I used to work crosswords with my mother all the time -- we'd each be holding our own pencil, quietly looking at the crossword then all at once we'd both get an aha (without verbal communication or looking at one another) and head for the exact same word to fill in. Is that 'cause we'd done it for so long together? Or ESP? I get the sensation I need to check on a child -- is it 'cause I KNOW they're in danger or perhaps I haven't heard any noises for close to 10 minutes and my mind alerts me to this change?

So, if we avoid catastrophes even without seeking God's guidance this doesn't really point to God, does it? It seems that one that already looked to God for answers would attribute these seemingly amazing events to God.

It's possible it was God--I believe God protects the non-religious at times too. I also believe it's possible that there is a natural explanation. I don't know--I wasn't there. Furthrmore I believe that God doesn't tend to prove He exists but only drops little hints that add up to evidence for him when taken together.

That's interesting, to me, you frame it that way. I think if you're looking for those hints that you would find them. I think if people are happy with their belief, so be it. I don't have it -- even after asking earnestly (I thought) and don't disparage that others do have this.

I think the thing I have problem with when BCSpace said there was a scientific test is this: Why is faith necessary if there is a scientific test of some sort? I see the two as incompatible. Am I wrong?

[_asbestosman]

Well, I hate to be blunt here -- yet, if all these people seek God's will are getting different "wisdom", that contradicts one another, how does that possibly support the notion that it is God giving them the wisdom? How do you know it's God and not just your own thoughts?

I don't know, but it's just my best guess for now based on my own personal experience and thoughts. I'm not even sure I can articulate my reasons as I don't always know why I am as I am or choose as I do.

I think the thing I have problem with when BCSpace said there was a scientific test is this: Why is faith necessary if there is a scientific test of some sort? I see the two as incompatible. Am I wrong?

The necessity of faith is something I do not understand well and is one of my top 10 questions about my religion. I would say that perhaps science should never rely on faith, but perhaps some knowledge should rely on faith. I've never been to Iraq, but I take it for granted that Iraq exists because I believe the overwhelming sources that tell me so.

[_John Larsen]

If you wanted to test the effectiveness of a religion you need a control and a placebo to make sure that the results are not just psychological. The question isn't, "does Christianity work" the question is "is the effect of Christianity statistically significant".

[_Moniker]

Well, I hate to be blunt here -- yet, if all these people seek God's will are getting different "wisdom", that contradicts one another, how does that possibly support the notion that it is God giving them the wisdom? How do you know it's God and not just your own thoughts?

I don't know, but it's just my best guess for now based on my own personal experience and thoughts. I'm not even sure I can articulate my reasons as I don't always know why I am as I am or choose as I do.

I think the thing I have problem with when BCSpace said there was a scientific test is this: Why is faith necessary if there is a scientific test of some sort? I see the two as incompatible. Am I wrong?

The necessity of faith is something I do not understand well and is one of my top 10 questions about my religion. I would say that perhaps science should never rely on faith, but perhaps some knowledge should rely on faith. I've never been to Iraq, but I take it for granted that Iraq exists because I believe the overwhelming sources that tell me so.

I've seen you talking about knowing about Iraq even without ever being there. Seen that often from you lately. I appreciate it every time you write it, for some reason or another. :)

I accept that you believe in God. It's not my thoughts, but I can attempt to relate to you and understand your thoughts. So, if someone came back from Iraq and told me stories I could hear the stories (much like those that tell me about their experiences with God) and understand what occurred to them. Yet, if I wanted to go to Iraq I could go. Not just their personal testimony -- no, I could verify that it is indeed there if I doubted them. When my children tell me the shadow monster is going to get them I BELIEVE that they truly are startled by this fiendish imaginary fellow -- yet, I can't verify that the shadow monster is real -- it's not!

Faith is belief without evidence. There is evidence of Iraq. What is the overwhelming evidence in support of God? And if you rely on faith why do you need evidence at all?

[_Moniker]

If you wanted to test the effectiveness of a religion you need a control and a placebo to make sure that the results are not just psychological. The question isn't, "does Christianity work" the question is "is the effect of Christianity statistically significant".

Oh, you're using mumbo jumbo scientific speak in my "science" thread. Don't do that! :)

How would one go about creating such a test? What would be the placebo? How would it be measured? What would be the control?

[_the road to hana]

Bcspace said there were some scientific tests to determine the validity of Christianity.

He proposed this as one from the Bible:

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

Any "scientific test to determine the validity of Christianity" would have to deal with Christianity's exclusive claims that distinguish it from other faiths. That one wouldn't qualify.

They'd have to specifically deal with the claims of resurrection of the body of Jesus Christ, on which all Christianity is founded. Not on proofs of God, or a supreme being, or divine guidance. So bcspace's attempt misses the mark.