Tal Bachman wrote:I am one of the few Mormons who actually believes in prophet fallibility and isn't afraid to discuss it publically, Tal. I am consistent in that. And I am well within the bounds of church doctrine, were I to be faced with a bishop's visit because of my comments.
---Of course you're "well within the bounds", providing that simply
believing you are "well within the bounds" is magically equivalent to that actually being true.
Well, since I'm still a member in good standing, I suppose I'm free to continue thinking what I think. And you are unable to impact that at all.
By the way, the question isn't some broad one about "fallibility" versus "infallibility". If there were some Mormon doctrine of prophetic infallibility, the church would have been over once Emma caught Pres. Clinton I mean Joseph Smith shagging Fanny Alger.
This comment doesn't make sense to me. Please explain what you're trying to say. Joseph "shagging" Fanny isn't doctrinal, so I don't see what that has to do with LDS doctrine or prophets.
If you're saying Joseph lost the prophetic mantle the instant he walked outside his marriage vows to Emma, then I agree with you. I don't see what that has to do with prophet infallibility today though, except that Joseph's resultant loss of prophetic ability led to numerous mistakes in doctrine that subsequent prophets have had to correct. And unfortunately some of those attempts at correction have led to worse mistakes (Joseph F has a lot to answer for).
The question here is, rather, whether "the Lord will permit the prophet to lead the church astray". Canonized Mormon scripture (D&C Manifesto One) says no.
Of course God will allow the prophet to lead the church astray. That is not in question. We have numerous corrections to accepted doctrine to prove that God has indeed allowed the prophet to lead the church astray. Appeals to scriptures certainly don't mean what the scripture prohibits has never happened. Canonized scripture of any variety is made up of the words and doctrines of men. Very little is God-breathed. Mormons are not alone in their mistake.
Does it matter to you? Of course not. Why should it? It matters no more than any other LDS doctrine matters to any other Mormon who just can't believe it anymore.
There you go again, trying to tell me what I believe. Try to avoid that, Tal. It doesn't help your argument.
I parse scripture very carefully, seeking the little gems that are God's own. My affiliation with the LDS church is immaterial to my relationship with God. My patience with members who don't parse the scriptures is as great as my patience with my children when they do stupid things, and similiarly with you.
Nothing matters except the mindgames which can, at a stroke, render mutually exclusive propositions perfectly compatible.
Mindgames? Please rephrase and clarify.
Just because you still feel it necessary to assume that all Mormons believe in prophet infallibility is not my problem.
---Don't misrepresent me, Harmony. Of course I don't believe that.
And yet you feel free to misrepresent me repeatedly. Interesting.
Just because I drew an incorrect assumption from your words doesn't mean I'm misrepresenting you, at least not intentionally. Clarify that which is obviously unclear, don't accuse.
As I've said from the beginning, the only thing that "all Mormons" seem to have in common these days is a limitless ability to play mindgames on themselves, so as to remain able to believe absolutely anything they want or need to, while still convincing themselves they're "well within the bounds of Mormon doctrine".
You say this as if it's something only Mormons indulge in. If you indeed think that, you are incorrect. You have a limitless ability to play mindgames yourself, and you aren't LDS. We all are guilty of manipulating our worldview in order to maintain our comfort zone; it's a human trait that enables us to get through each day without killing ourselves. It's part of living. Once you recognize that in yourself and in the greater world out there, it would be hoped that you could extrapolate that recognition to allowing those Mormons you know to actually lead their own lives, without interference from you.
Indeed. How sweet of you to allow us to live our own lives.
---Told ya I did a lot of sweet things...[/quote]
That explains the ache in my teeth no doubt.