"Happy Valley," the movie; drug abuse in Zion

[_harmony]

It's hard for me to connect to problems in Utah county, it's true. I live a thousand miles away.

I think this is important. I doubt you'll find anybody familiar with the Utah County culture that will argue my, or Ron's points. I never said it was a church-wide problem, or even a church problem at all. I'm not suggesting that. It IS a problem with the culture of Utah County. YOu do the extrapolation to figure it out. It just is.

If it is a local problem, then the cause of it can't be laid at the door of Mormon culture in general. Mormon culture may be a part of the problem, but if the problems were caused largely by Mormon culture, we'd see those same problems popping up wherever Mormons are concentrated, which means Idaho and Arizona would be manifesting similiar problems at a similiar rate. Instead, we see North Dakota next on the list. So it behooves us to try to figure out what Utah and North Dakota have in common... and Mormon culture certainly isn't even close.

I'm not denying you've got a problem in Utah county, and I'm all for blaming Mormon culture for problems which it causes. However, I don't see a direct connection between your problem in Utah county and Mormon culture in general. I don't deny that the way Mormon culture is practiced in Utah county may contribute to it, but that is still a local issue, not a church-wide problem.

Alrighty then. Still, see the movie and I think you'll be touched.

Are you interested in finding the root of the problem, or do you just want to continue to blame Mormon culture?

[_BishopRic]

Are you interested in finding the root of the problem, or do you just want to continue to blame Mormon culture?

I sense a need to fight about something here Harmony. I'm not interested in that. I'm a certified addiction's counselor. I am interested in fighting the problem, not fighting you. I understand it very well, thank you, and hope some of you will see the movie and help the community fight a terrible epidemic of drug addiction -- no matter the cause. Please understand what I am saying, not what you think I am saying.

[_harmony]

Are you interested in finding the root of the problem, or do you just want to continue to blame Mormon culture?

I sense a need to fight about something here Harmony. I'm not interested in that. I'm a certified addiction's counselor. I am interested in fighting the problem, not fighting you. I understand it very well, thank you, and hope some of you will see the movie and help the community fight a terrible epidemic of drug addiction -- no matter the cause. Please understand what I am saying, not what you think I am saying.

I am not interested in fighting, but it appears you are not interested in finding the real root of the problem, since it doesn't appear that you can blame Mormon culture anymore, like you did in the opening post. Whatever. The subject has been studied repeatedly; the literature is almost endless, and still no one has come to the same conclusion you and Ron have: that Mormon culture is the root cause of the epidemic, in Utah and elsewhere throughout the country. Interesting, that.

[_BishopRic]

Are you interested in finding the root of the problem, or do you just want to continue to blame Mormon culture?

I sense a need to fight about something here Harmony. I'm not interested in that. I'm a certified addiction's counselor. I am interested in fighting the problem, not fighting you. I understand it very well, thank you, and hope some of you will see the movie and help the community fight a terrible epidemic of drug addiction -- no matter the cause. Please understand what I am saying, not what you think I am saying.

I am not interested in fighting, but it appears you are not interested in finding the real root of the problem, since it doesn't appear that you can blame Mormon culture anymore, like you did in the opening post. Whatever. The subject has been studied repeatedly; the literature is almost endless, and still no one has come to the same conclusion you and Ron have: that Mormon culture is the root cause of the epidemic, in Utah and elsewhere throughout the country. Interesting, that.

I have found it, through my own personal addiction and years of training and counseling others. You have consistently not heard what I have said. I don't know why you don't listen. Let me try again.

THE CHURCH IS NOT THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM OF DRUG ADDICTION.

Okay, one more time.

THE CHURCH IS NOT THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM OF DRUG ADDICTION.

And again, the cause of addictions is a lack of self-worth, lack of hope, and having unrealistic expectations. There is a component of the church culture, particularly in a dominant community that seems to instill this. The statistics don't lie. It is happening in Utah County, and any good social scientist that is familiar with the dynamics of Utah County will agree. If YOU want to get to the root of the problem in Utah County, live there a while. Ask the thousands of families afflicted with the problem what is happening.

And listen to them.

Do you believe the church epitomizes unconditional love and acceptance? This is what is necessary. If you think it is perfect at it already, then I would have to put you in the category of those in denial. If it is one of many organizations and cultures that does this, then let's work to improve all of them so the problem gets better. That's all I'm saying. It just so happens that Utah County seems to be a bit more steeped in denial of the problem than most. Thus the need for the movie, and Ron's mission of bringing awareness to those that can help.

[_harmony]

I have found it, through my own personal addiction and years of training and counseling others.

You have found it? The root problem surrounding addiction and suicide? Then why haven't you fixed it? Because it's not quite that simple?

You have consistently not heard what I have said. I don't know why you don't listen.

Perhaps because you aren't clear?

Let me try again.

THE CHURCH IS NOT THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM OF DRUG ADDICTION.

Okay, one more time.

THE CHURCH IS NOT THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM OF DRUG ADDICTION.

Well, that's a start. But then you go on...

And again, the cause of addictions is a lack of self-worth, lack of hope, and having unrealistic expectations.

Always? The same cause is always present, not dependent on location, SES, homelife, family history? Hmmmm....

There is a component of the church culture, particularly in a dominant community that seems to instill this.

And yet drug addiction, suicide, etc. isn't manifest in every church member, or even every youth, not even in Utah county, but certainly not throughout the church. So why is it that only in Utah county is this a problem... not in other counties with significant LDS populations?

What is it about Utah county that catapults it to the top of the list? To me, it's always seemed like a typical middle class county. Why is Utah county so addicted or suicidal? Could it be that it only seems that way to you, because you're in the middle of treating those that are addicted? That it isn't really that different from other counties where Mormons congregate?

The statistics don't lie. It is happening in Utah County, and any good social scientist that is familiar with the dynamics of Utah County will agree.

But why? We already agreed we can't blame the church, nor can we blame Mormon culture (see your quote above). So why does this problem exist to the extent that it does, in Utah county? And why does it exist so much in North Dakota? And why doesn't it exist as much as would be expected in Idaho? Or Arizona?

If YOU want to get to the root of the problem in Utah County, live there a while. Ask the thousands of families afflicted with the problem what is happening.

Thousands of families? Good grief. There's less than 100,000 families in Utah county, according to the census. Just how many are you saying are afflicted by this problem? Even if it's 2000 families, that's still only 2% of the population.

Do you believe the church epitomizes unconditional love and acceptance? This is what is necessary.

No, but then neither does any other organization. And if you think that is what is necessary, then you're bound to be disappointed, no matter where you are or what you do. And so will all of your clients. Unconditional love and acceptance is simply not available anywhere on earth.

If you think it is perfect at it already, then I would have to put you in the category of those in denial. If it is one of many organizations and cultures that does this, then let's work to improve all of them so the problem gets better. That's all I'm saying. It just so happens that Utah County seems to be a bit more steeped in denial of the problem than most. Thus the need for the movie, and Ron's mission of bringing awareness to those that can help.

How do you know Utah county is more steeped in denial than anywhere else? And what good is a movie, if people are so steeped in denial they either won't go see it or they won't recognize themselves anyway?

I'd think a public education campaign would serve the purpose more effectively. It could be modeled on the successful anti-tobacco campaigns in other states, that have dropped the smoking rates so radically. Of course, that requires that your public health people admit there is a problem (and getting Utah public health to admit there is a problem may be a bit harder than in other states).

[_BishopRic]

... And what good is a movie, if people are so steeped in denial they either won't go see it or they won't recognize themselves anyway?

This is the best point you make, and it seems might unfortunately be true.

Ron did make some good headway on a KSL interview a few days ago, and it had higher listenership than that show had ever had (so they said). But the only way to break through the denial is to be a squeaky wheel. The governor and the attorney general of the state are recommending that people see the movie. I think that's a good start. The few that might see it might have a breakthrough.

Isn't there a scripture about "if we can bring but one soul...?" Maybe that's how we feel about it.

[_harmony]

... And what good is a movie, if people are so steeped in denial they either won't go see it or they won't recognize themselves anyway?

This is the best point you make, and it seems might unfortunately be true.

Ron did make some good headway on a KSL interview a few days ago, and it had higher listenership than that show had ever had (so they said). But the only way to break through the denial is to be a squeaky wheel. The governor and the attorney general of the state are recommending that people see the movie. I think that's a good start. The few that might see it might have a breakthrough.

Isn't there a scripture about "if we can bring but one soul...?" Maybe that's how we feel about it.

A question: are all of your clients LDS?

[_karl61]

I was raised in the church in the 60's and 70's. I was a member of the Church from age 8 until 19. I came home early from my mission. I faked like I was sick. They wanted me to come home and get better and then go back. They did not release me. I was a 19 year old ordained LDS missionary at home. As instinct calls I was very intersted in sex and I have sex for the first time. This was not planned and I go that night to my Bishop. He has me meet with the stake president that week and I'm released. He said that what happened should never happen again. He calls me back in few weeks and said since I was an ordained missionary that the Church said that a High Council court should be held. I go to a church court and I'm put on probation. I'm 19 years old, I live in southern california and have a great interest in sex. I see girls walking the streets in hollywood and decide that I want an experience with one of those girls. I pay for sex. After a few months I'm called in to see how I'm doing with my probation and I tell the stake president's counselor what is going on in my life. I'm paying for sex now. He tells me people that do this are cast out. That week I go back to another church court. I'm excommunicated. I'm still 19. When the stake president says that decision of the court is excommunication I tell him that I think I am going to be sick and ask if I can leave the room and go into a small side room and start crying. One of the stake president's couselors comes to get me and takes me to the bathroom. I cry hard - very hard for about a half hour. I tell him I just want to die and I'm tired of being hurt. I was the punching bag of our youth group - priests quourm - teased all the time. I was 6'2 and weighed 125 pounds.

People outside the church have no idea of the mind games and pressures that are put on the youth of the church. As I look back I was traumatized by my court. My addiction to sex (porn and prostitutes) grew exponentially. I felt I had nothing to lose - except as I look back I almost lost my life - many times. This stuff is real harmony -

[_Moniker]

thestyleguy, I'm so sorry you were teased and treated that way. That the very adults that were in a position of power to help you with your problem didn't not do so is disgusting to me. It's obvious to me that those experiences in the Church hurt you so much. I'm sorry.

:(

[_karl61]

Moniker: thanks for your thoughts. I think the point is that an experience that someone in the community or the friends on my street would not even think about the following day is sudden drama in the life of an LDS teenager. The whole about me being on a mission at 19 was obsurd. It was an abuse of power by General Authorities. The judgement, the shame (yes my excommunication was reported in priesthood) was just a little too much and it took strong medication to help me out.

A real sad and stupid thing was that my mom and dad had split up and I was living with my mom. I could not tell her what happened and asked the stake president to talk to her so he had his clerk call and have her come down to talk to him. She started getting real scared and was questioning me why the stake president wanted to talk to her as she didn't know about the second court. Well, one of the guys in the priesthood meeting was the neighbor down the street who called his wife (my mom's friend) and told her what happened. As my mom was walking into the buidling the lady came up to my mom and told her how she was sorry about my excommunication.

My mom was sick for about six months and stayed in the house and would not get out of bed she was so depressed. These things happen and it's not happy valley for some.