"Happy Valley," the movie; drug abuse in Zion

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_BishopRic
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Re: "Happy Valley," the movie; drug abuse in Zion

Post by _BishopRic »

harmony wrote:
BishopRic wrote:
harmony wrote:
... And what good is a movie, if people are so steeped in denial they either won't go see it or they won't recognize themselves anyway?


This is the best point you make, and it seems might unfortunately be true.

Ron did make some good headway on a KSL interview a few days ago, and it had higher listenership than that show had ever had (so they said). But the only way to break through the denial is to be a squeaky wheel. The governor and the attorney general of the state are recommending that people see the movie. I think that's a good start. The few that might see it might have a breakthrough.

Isn't there a scripture about "if we can bring but one soul...?" Maybe that's how we feel about it.


A question: are all of your clients LDS?


I'm no longer working professionally as an addictions counselor. Most of the clients were LDS however. Of course not all were -- I worked in a rehab center in Salt Lake where the LDS percentage is much less than Utah County, but because of the high opiate use there, many clients came from Utah County for treatment.
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche
_Tori
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Re: "Happy Valley," the movie; drug abuse in Zion

Post by _Tori »

harmony wrote:
BishopRic wrote:
harmony wrote:
... And what good is a movie, if people are so steeped in denial they either won't go see it or they won't recognize themselves anyway?


This is the best point you make, and it seems might unfortunately be true.

Ron did make some good headway on a KSL interview a few days ago, and it had higher listenership than that show had ever had (so they said). But the only way to break through the denial is to be a squeaky wheel. The governor and the attorney general of the state are recommending that people see the movie. I think that's a good start. The few that might see it might have a breakthrough.

Isn't there a scripture about "if we can bring but one soul...?" Maybe that's how we feel about it.


A question: are all of your clients LDS?


After reading your exchange with Rick, I wonder....why are you being combative?

No where does Rick say it is the Church's fault. I have talked with him at length about this topic because it hits very close to home. I have a child that is an addict and has been clean and sober for over 2 years thanks to Rick's help.

I also live in Utah County and have wondered what part our Mormon culture has played in her becoming an addict. I have attended several viewings and funerals of young adults in our area that have died from overdoses. Most of these kids come from active LDS families. It is epidemic, painful and very troubling.

I thought the movie was moving and very real as it told the stories of several families touched by this. It in no way bashes the LDS Church or lays blame. At the end of the movie, Williams says that he could've told the same story about any community in the U.S. Addiction knows no boundaries. It doesn't matter what religion a person is, what profession they have, what their education level is.....Addiction doesn't care!

You asked Rick if he wanted to get to the real "root of the problem". You accused him of not wanting that stating that you believe he just wants to blame the Church. I can tell you that you are dead wrong in your assumption. I have seen this man help countless people. I know how the drug problem we have in our community concerns him. Believe me....he does want to get to the real root of the problem and we discuss many theories about it.

So, I ask you Harmony...When you don't live it Utah....When you don't really know what is going on here in Utah County....When you obviously haven't seen the movie.....Why are you being so accusatory and cranky?
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who cold not hear the music. ----Nietzche
_harmony
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Re: "Happy Valley," the movie; drug abuse in Zion

Post by _harmony »

Tori wrote:After reading your exchange with Rick, I wonder....why are you being combative?

No where does Rick say it is the Church's fault. I have talked with him at length about this topic because it hits very close to home. I have a child that is an addict and has been clean and sober for over 2 years thanks to Rick's help.

I also live in Utah County and have wondered what part our Mormon culture has played in her becoming an addict. I have attended several viewings and funerals of young adults in our area that have died from overdoses. Most of these kids come from active LDS families. It is epidemic, painful and very troubling.

I thought the movie was moving and very real as it told the stories of several families touched by this. It in no way bashes the LDS Church or lays blame. At the end of the movie, Williams says that he could've told the same story about any community in the U.S. Addiction knows no boundaries. It doesn't matter what religion a person is, what profession they have, what their education level is.....Addiction doesn't care!

You asked Rick if he wanted to get to the real "root of the problem". You accused him of not wanting that stating that you believe he just wants to blame the Church. I can tell you that you are dead wrong in your assumption. I have seen this man help countless people. I know how the drug problem we have in our community concerns him. Believe me....he does want to get to the real root of the problem and we discuss many theories about it.

So, I ask you Harmony...When you don't live it Utah....When you don't really know what is going on here in Utah County....When you obviously haven't seen the movie.....Why are you being so accusatory and cranky?


I see. Because I don't agree with your assumption or Rick's assumption, I am accusatory and cranky?

From the OP:
It shows with heart-wrenching interviews, the devastation and extent of drug abuse in this state.


In this state. The OP started out talking about Utah, not just Utah county.

Then:

A few statistics it discusses:

* prescription drug abuse is the highest in the country;

* suicide rates are among the highest in each age category;

* anti-depressant use is twice the national average;


These stats apply to the entire state of Utah, not just Utah county. Yet the discussion devolved into a discussion of Utah county only.

The obvious question he attempts to answer is...Why?

I think he does a good job of interviewing a few LDS members trapped in the addiction world that explain their process. They explain the obvious, that there is much denial about the problem, and very little willingness to communicate with family members about their reasons for using.


Here, Bishopric mentions only LDS members, yet we all know that not 100% of the citizens of Utah are LDS. Yet his words have us believe that this problem only exists in the LDS church (which is why I asked him if all of his clients were LDS).

in my opinion much of the problem comes from a two-faced approach to the professed principle of unconditional love. From the pulpits, it is taught and encouraged. In the trenches of the community, it is not lived. Anybody who strays from the cultural norms of belief or lifestyle is judged and avoided as if they have the plague. This lack of acceptance leads to chemical abuse to have some degree of "feeling good" about themselves.


Here, he up's the ante against the church. His solution to the problem is taught from LDS pulpits, but not lived by LDS members.

On his blog, Ron quotes a response from a local bishop:

"This film begins as a critique of Utah (Mormon) culture and how the very religion that gives its inhabitants postive family values positively leads them to hide deep problems and indulge in private addictions–especially prescription drug abuse. Shocking statistics are announced throughout the film about Utahns and drug abuse, and part of this film wants to be an expose. Luckily it does not follow that track as vigorously as the down-to-earth and painful stories of various families and individuals victimized by drugs. I’m all for bringing attention to real problems, but the film plays fast and loose with its statistics and their interpretation...

(sounds like MAD apologetics to me!)


Other religions aren't associated with bishops and MAD, at least in Utah. Juxtapositioning the bishop's comment with the snide comment about MAD seems like a dig against the church.

...Nor was there any acknowledgment whatsoever of the tremendous efforts made both locally and generally by the LDS Church to address addictions of all sorts and to provide social services for their treatment. Not only is the problem addressed frankly and frequently from a spiritual vantage point by church leaders

(I'll tell you, their approach is not adequate, or effective most of the time)


Another dig against the church.

...So it was a bit hard for me to watch the cheap shots at Mormons (as though the faith does more to produce addicts than to significanty prevent and meaningfully heal addictions)."

(in my opinion, that is a correct statement. As one who dealt with addiction, the church had much to do with it. You've got to bury your head in the sand to think otherwise.)


Another dig against the church.
====================
I simply said if the church contributed significantly to drug abuse, suicide, and use of antidepressants, North Dakota wouldn't be 2nd on that list. Idaho and Arizona would be, based on their concentration of LDS people. Everywhere LDS congregate, we'd see a similiar ratio of abuse. And we don't.

Bishopric couldn't refute that argument, either in Utah state or Utah county.

I don't deny that Utah county has a problem, or that Utah as a state has a problem, but to directly connect the problem to the church, as Bishopric does in his OP, requires more than what he's presented here. I repeatedly suggested that he figure out what similiarities exist between Utah and North Dakota, since they are #1 and #2 on his list. That didn't seem to be of interest to him. Isolation, the economy, family history, and the weather were all immaterial; Bishopric already has it all figured out.

Whatever.

I never attacked him, nor will I attack you, but I think it's pretty low that just because I don't agree with you or him, I'm seen as accusatory and cranky.

edited for clarity and emphasis.
_Tori
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Re: "Happy Valley," the movie; drug abuse in Zion

Post by _Tori »

harmony wrote:
I never attacked him, nor will I attack you, but I think it's pretty low that just because I don't agree with you or him, I'm seen as accusatory and cranky.


It's just that your posts on this thread have come across as such, at least to me. It's OK to disagree with us, but please until you have first hand experience of what is happening in "Happy Valley", you really don't know.

And, you were being accusatory. You accused Rick of NOT wanting to get to the real "root of the problem". I assured you that he truly does. That is why he started this thread. That is why we went to the movie. That is why he remains interested in helping people when he can, in recovery.

And the movie tells stories about people from Payson, (so. ut. county) all the way to Ogden. Much was shown in Ut. County and the title just meant 'a Happy Valley'....or is it? (my opinion of the title choice). Much sadness around here the past few years as we see so many young people fall victim to this disease.

I'm also just a little puzzled by your reaction to Rick's OP. He has a real passion about this topic and feels that discussion is good. I've read your posts over the last several months and your jumping to conclusions about Rick's intent surprised me. I've never seen you respond like you did....that's all.
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who cold not hear the music. ----Nietzche
_harmony
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Re: "Happy Valley," the movie; drug abuse in Zion

Post by _harmony »

Tori wrote:
harmony wrote:
I never attacked him, nor will I attack you, but I think it's pretty low that just because I don't agree with you or him, I'm seen as accusatory and cranky.


It's just that your posts on this thread have come across as such, at least to me. It's OK to disagree with us, but please until you have first hand experience of what is happening in "Happy Valley", you really don't know.


I have first hand experience of being a Mormon in a place other than Happy Valley, and what I know doesn't jive with what Rick presented here. So that tells me that it's not being a Mormon that produces addiction, suicide, etc; there's something other than being Mormon that contributes to these conditions. And the fact that North Dakota is 2nd supports my suggestion.

And, you were being accusatory. You accused Rick of NOT wanting to get to the real "root of the problem".


No, I didn't. I asked him (which is a long ways from being accusatory. If you think a question is accusatory, you are entirely too thin-skinned to carry on a discussion with the likes of me) if he wanted to get to the real root of the problem. And it appears that he doesn't, since he's not willing to look at environmental and familial factors other than membership in the LDS church.

I assured you that he truly does. That is why he started this thread. That is why we went to the movie. That is why he remains interested in helping people when he can, in recovery.


And I'm sure he's very helpful. It might be even more helpful if he looked to all the factors, instead of just one.

And the movie tells stories about people from Payson, (so. ut. county) all the way to Ogden. Much was shown in Ut. County and the title just meant 'a Happy Valley'....or is it? (my opinion of the title choice). Much sadness around here the past few years as we see so many young people fall victim to this disease.


I think you ignore or denigrate the suffering of the parents of the youth you treat. Or at the very least, you portray them as unfeeling and unloving. Which may not be the case at all. The anguish they may be feeling, especially of those youth who commit suicide, is unbelievable. You both might try to expand your vision past the addict themselves to include the parents and families who have struggled for so long with a demon that controls the child they love. Demanding unconditional love is one thing. Actually living it is very difficult. And unconditional love is all well and good, but tough love seems to work almost as well.

I'm also just a little puzzled by your reaction to Rick's OP. He has a real passion about this topic and feels that discussion is good. I've read your posts over the last several months and your jumping to conclusions about Rick's intent surprised me. I've never seen you respond like you did....that's all.


I have a real passion too. It's called personal responsibility. And it starts with the individual taking responsibility for their own choices. Which you seem to have sidelined in favor of blaming the parents for not loving their children unconditionally. Yes, this is a problem. No, there is no easy fix.
_Trinity
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Post by _Trinity »

Related to this topic, there was a drug bust just last week that was covered by the news. SLC officers nabbed a drug operation that was distributing 5,000 spitters of cocaine/heroine per day at the cost of $10 each. According to news coverage, 85% of their clientele are teens and young adults from Utah county. They travel up to SLC on nearly a daily basis to get their fix. One of the newscasters characterized the clientele as young, white, Mormons. When I find it, I will provide a link.

My (recovering addict) daughter reminded me that these dealers saw it as just doing business and if they are caught (since they are illegal mexicans) they are just deported and some more illegal mexicans will take their place. I asked my daughter what she would expect a parent to do if they found a bear wandering into their house and swiping at their children. Is it worthy of killing? I think it is.

The demand is high, these are highly addictive substances, and apparently the supply is also plentiful. Clearly they need to amend the punishment so that there is an actual deterrent for dealing drugs to our children. Regardless of the root cause.

Me, I'm all for stringing them up by their scrawny testicles and then shooting their dead bodies back over the border. It's hard enough raising teens without throwing cocaine into the mix.

And yes, you may call me both accusatory and cranky on this matter.
"I think one of the great mysteries of the gospel is that anyone still believes it." Sethbag, MADB, Feb 22 2008
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Trinity wrote:Related to this topic, there was a drug bust just last week that was covered by the news. SLC officers nabbed a drug operation that was distributing 5,000 spitters of cocaine/heroine per day at the cost of $10 each. According to news coverage, 85% of their clientele are teens and young adults from Utah county. They travel up to SLC on nearly a daily basis to get their fix. One of the newscasters characterized the clientele as young, white, Mormons. When I find it, I will provide a link.

My (recovering addict) daughter reminded me that these dealers saw it as just doing business and if they are caught (since they are illegal mexicans) they are just deported and some more illegal mexicans will take their place. I asked my daughter what she would expect a parent to do if they found a bear wandering into their house and swiping at their children. Is it worthy of killing? I think it is.

The demand is high, these are highly addictive substances, and apparently the supply is also plentiful. Clearly they need to amend the punishment so that there is an actual deterrent for dealing drugs to our children. Regardless of the root cause.

Me, I'm all for stringing them up by their scrawny testicles and then shooting their dead bodies back over the border. It's hard enough raising teens without throwing cocaine into the mix.

And yes, you may call me both accusatory and cranky on this matter.


Do you blame Mormon culture for your daughter's problem, Trinity?
_Trinity
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Post by _Trinity »

The closest thing I can think of to tie to Mormonism is the cultural element of refusing to express anything that may be going wrong. That denial, in my opinion, contributes to a climate where the "wrong" things can thrive. It also delays trying to solve the problem.

Other than that, I'd say no.
"I think one of the great mysteries of the gospel is that anyone still believes it." Sethbag, MADB, Feb 22 2008
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Some interesting statistics from the National Institute of Chemical Dependency, last updated Mar 5, 2008:

Illicit drug use, over 18:
UT: 7.36%
AK highest at 12.4%
National average: 7.76%

Cocaine use in past month, over 18:
UT: 2.46%
DC highest at 3.62%
National average: 2.39%

Nonmedical use of pain relievers in past year, over 18:
UT: 6.31%
UT is 1st
National average: 4.49%

Alcohol use in last month, over 18:
UT: 32.5%
Connecticut: 65.91%
National average: 55.02%

Binge alcohol use in past month, over 18:
UT: 17.38%
ND: 33.33%
National average: 24.13%

Serious psychological distress in past year, over 18:
UT: 14.58%
WV: 15.29%
National average: 11.63%

Having at least one depressive episode in past year, over 18:
UT: 10.14%
UT is 1st
National average: 7.65%

Source: SAMHSA, Office of Applied Studies, National Survey on Drug Use and Health, 2006

These are the most up to date statistics there are. Now what conclusions can we draw?
_karl61
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Post by _karl61 »

Harmony: what are your thoughts on primary sources and secondary sources: you seem to discount personal experiences.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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