"Happy Valley," the movie; drug abuse in Zion

[_karl61]

LMAO - you would be suprised and what people do and what they say they do - it goes back to what I said about adoring history and you get what you give out ; it's coming back with no warning.

[_Maxrep]

Within the United States in Utah about sixty percent of the population are members. That puts the state population of Saints at just over 1.5 million members. In Idaho, fourteen percent of the population are LDS; in Nevada, nine percent; Arizona, six percent; Oregon, four percent; and the rest of the states are at about three percent. - wikipedia

Harmony, you have it made it quite clear that other states with high LDS populations should be experiencing similar problems in similar ratios. That rolls easily enough off the tongue, but what you haven't pointed out is that the concentration of members in Utah is exponentially higher than its closest competing states. Did you give any consideration to the idea that there very well may be a critical mass that can be reached when the Mormon populous completely dominates a region? Arizona has 1/10th the concentration of members when compared to Utah. Additionally, church headquarters and its leaders are located in Utah.

Could it be that someone living in Utah has a life experience much more unique than another individual residing in one of the above listed states?

[_harmony]

Within the United States in Utah about sixty percent of the population are members. That puts the state population of Saints at just over 1.5 million members. In Idaho, fourteen percent of the population are LDS; in Nevada, nine percent; Arizona, six percent; Oregon, four percent; and the rest of the states are at about three percent. - wikipedia

Harmony, you have it made it quite clear that other states with high LDS populations should be experiencing similar problems in similar ratios. That rolls easily enough off the tongue, but what you haven't pointed out is that the concentration of members in Utah is exponentially higher than its closest competing states. Did you give any consideration to the idea that there very well may be a critical mass that can be reached when the Mormon populous completely dominates a region? Arizona has 1/10th the concentration of members when compared to Utah. Additionally, church headquarters and its leaders are located in Utah.

Could it be that someone living in Utah has a life experience much more unique than another individual residing in one of the above listed states?

Check out the stats from 2006, maxrep. Then we'll talk. Utah is at the top for abuse of prescription painkillers and depressive episodes. But even then, 95% of the population does not abuse prescription painkillers, and 90% of the population has not had a depressive episode in the last year. If the church and Mormon culture caused such horrendous pain, don't you think those numbers would be much larger in a state where 60% of the population is Mormon?

[_Black Moclips]

I have a good friend who was born TBM, mission, etc, and then went inactive in college. Years later, he told me of his escapades in Utah county and it blew me away to find out about the very large, and well organized under-culture of sex and drugs. Huge drug parties in mansions and rich home around SLC, Provo, Park City, etc. I'm not saying the church was the cause, but a lot of the attendees at these events were members. Anyway, just anecdotal commentary from the edge.

[_harmony]

I have a good friend who was born TBM, mission, etc, and then went inactive in college. Years later, he told me of his escapades in Utah county and it blew me away to find out about the very large, and well organized under-culture of sex and drugs. Huge drug parties in mansions and rich home around SLC, Provo, Park City, etc. I'm not saying the church was the cause, but a lot of the attendees at these events were members. Anyway, just anecdotal commentary from the edge.

So the cautions parents were given from the GC pulpit about raves and such shouldn't have been pooh-poohed? Dang, don't ya hate it when the leaders are right?

But still, what percentage of the 60% of Utah's population do you suppose was involved in those activities? Hundreds? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? There's 1.5 million Mormons in Utah. Just how many are we talking about? And outside of Utah, where the pressures from the church are still the same as behind the Zion Curtain, how many LDS youth are or were involved in similiar activities?

[_Tori]

You both might try to expand your vision past the addict themselves to include the parents and families who have struggled for so long with a demon that controls the child they love.


Which you seem to have sidelined in favor of blaming the parents for not loving their children unconditionally. Yes, this is a problem. No, there is no easy fix.

HELLO!!! MCFLY!! Did you not read my post? I AM one of those parents!!!! Addiction has touched my family!! I worry every day that I will get that phone call! I worry endlessly that there will be a relapse! I've lost one daughter who was a teenager, I know all too well how that feels. I pray every day that I won't lose another.

You amaze me, Harmony. You haven't a clue.

That wasn't my point, Tori. My point was Rick views addiction from the point of view of the addicted, and blames Mormon culture, including Mormon parents, for much of the problem. There are others involved in the life of every addict, who also pray every day for the same thing you do. His point of view castigated them for not giving enough unconditional love to their children. Do I have to quote him, in order to make my point again?

in my opinion much of the problem comes from a two-faced approach to the professed principle of unconditional love. From the pulpits, it is taught and encouraged. In the trenches of the community, it is not lived. Anybody who strays from the cultural norms of belief or lifestyle is judged and avoided as if they have the plague.

He blames the parents, the culture, the church... everyone but the addict.

I'm sorry you lost a child. There is nothing more painful. But even that cannot be laid at the door of the church, nor can it be laid solely at the foot of the parents. Until the buck stops at the addict, there will be no solution to the problem.

Do you honestly believe that Utah county is the worst county for this problem in the whole country? If you think that, you are the one who hasn't a clue.

Oh, Harmony. You are exhausting! Rick is looking for answers. He has seen the problem all too frequently. He ultimately holds the addict responsible. That's what has to be done in order for recovery to be successful. I can tell you that he is hard-nosed about holding them responsible. I've seen him in action first hand.

You are soooo missing the point we are trying to make. We are asking questions of people among this culture for their feedback of why this is so prevolent in our close and very religious community!

NEWS FLASH!!! Studies show that there is a higher rate of non medical prescription drug use in Utah and specifically in Utah County! Studies show that there is a higher death rate from over doses! Why in the hell is this happening???

You know, I don't really care what the specific statistics are here. Arguing 'stats' doesn't help anything. I just know what I see and I'm seeing kids die. I'm seeing families being destroyed by this demon. It really doesn't take a Rocket Scientist or an official statistician to figure this out. There is definitely a problem in River City and it's high time members of our predominant religion wake up!

By the way. My daughter that died was killed in a car accident. It wasn't a drug overdose. She would be in her early twenties. I have NEVER blamed her death on the Church. I have never blamed my other daughter's addiction problems on the Church. Ever! She takes full responsibility for her addiction and is very serious about her sobriety.

Harmony, I have enjoyed reading your posts and respect your opinion so often on this forum. You are very wise in so many ways and it shows when you speak out about many topics. Forgive me if I'm scratching my head by your views on this topic. I don't understand your hostility towards Rick about this. Why can't this be a discussion to perhaps come to some possible solutions? Why can't we look at our culture/religion and wonder what part it plays? You know one thing that most of these kids have in common is that they were raised in a strong LDS environment. Don't you think we should look at that?


Tori....shaking her head, wondering why this is so difficult for some people to grasp.

[_Maxrep]

I have a good friend who was born TBM, mission, etc, and then went inactive in college. Years later, he told me of his escapades in Utah county and it blew me away to find out about the very large, and well organized under-culture of sex and drugs. Huge drug parties in mansions and rich home around SLC, Provo, Park City, etc. I'm not saying the church was the cause, but a lot of the attendees at these events were members. Anyway, just anecdotal commentary from the edge.

So the cautions parents were given from the GC pulpit about raves and such shouldn't have been pooh-poohed? Dang, don't ya hate it when the leaders are right?

But still, what percentage of the 60% of Utah's population do you suppose was involved in those activities? Hundreds? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? There's 1.5 million Mormons in Utah. Just how many are we talking about? And outside of Utah, where the pressures from the church are still the same as behind the Zion Curtain, how many LDS youth are or were involved in similiar activities?

Within the United States in Utah about sixty percent of the population are members. That puts the state population of Saints at just over 1.5 million members. In Idaho, fourteen percent of the population are LDS; in Nevada, nine percent; Arizona, six percent; Oregon, four percent; and the rest of the states are at about three percent. - wikipedia

Harmony, you have it made it quite clear that other states with high LDS populations should be experiencing similar problems in similar ratios. That rolls easily enough off the tongue, but what you haven't pointed out is that the concentration of members in Utah is exponentially higher than its closest competing states. Did you give any consideration to the idea that there very well may be a critical mass that can be reached when the Mormon populous completely dominates a region? Arizona has 1/10th the concentration of members when compared to Utah. Additionally, church headquarters and its leaders are located in Utah.

Could it be that someone living in Utah has a life experience much more unique than another individual residing in one of the above listed states?

Check out the stats from 2006, maxrep. Then we'll talk. Utah is at the top for abuse of prescription painkillers and depressive episodes. But even then, 95% of the population does not abuse prescription painkillers, and 90% of the population has not had a depressive episode in the last year. If the church and Mormon culture caused such horrendous pain, don't you think those numbers would be much larger in a state where 60% of the population is Mormon?

First off, I don't consider having a dialog with you a privilege. Drop the attitude.

Second, I am amazed at how proud members are to proclaim the percentage of college graduates within the faith - fine, we'll grant you that. Critics have no problem conceding positive points that may occur in the LDS culture. However, once the issue of bankruptcy, depression, drug abuse, or suicide, reaches the news as nation wide leaders in Utah - WHOA - time to run for the hills. The LDS members aren't going to be hearing any of that noise. Don't connect us to that nonsense...and so on.

Third, you didn't address the main point of my previous post.

[_harmony]

Oh, Harmony. You are exhausting! Rick is looking for answers. He has seen the problem all too frequently. He ultimately holds the addict responsible. That's what has to be done in order for recovery to be successful. I can tell you that he is hard-nosed about holding them responsible. I've seen him in action first hand.

That is not what he said here. He said the problem was parents who don't offer their children unconditional love. Do I need to quote him again? Surely you can't expect me to answer anything except what is presented here?

You are soooo missing the point we are trying to make. We are asking questions of people among this culture for their feedback of why this is so prevolent in our close and very religious community!

NEWS FLASH!!! Studies show that there is a higher rate of non medical prescription drug use in Utah and specifically in Utah County! Studies show that there is a higher death rate from over doses! Why in the hell is this happening???

Then your forum should be a public forum in Utah and Utah county. This board is made up of very few people who live in Utah and even fewer who live in Utah county. Or else at the least you should have limited the participation of people here to those who are in Utah county, and I would not have joined the thread at all.

You know, I don't really care what the specific statistics are here. Arguing 'stats' doesn't help anything. I just know what I see and I'm seeing kids die. I'm seeing families being destroyed by this demon. It really doesn't take a Rocket Scientist or an official statistician to figure this out. There is definitely a problem in River City and it's high time members of our predominant religion wake up!

You still have not shown that the dominant religion in the area is in any direct way connected to the problem. If you want members of that religion to "wake up", you have to show a direct relationship of the problem to the religion. And you haven't.

And Rick put stats predominantly in his OP. If he didn't want to discuss stats, then don't mention them in the OP. Because that just opens up the door for stats countering the OP.

By the way. My daughter that died was killed in a car accident. It wasn't a drug overdose. She would be in her early twenties. I have NEVER blamed her death on the Church. I have never blamed my other daughter's addiction problems on the Church. Ever! She takes full responsibility for her addiction and is very serious about her sobriety.

I see no reason for your to mention your daughter who is gone at all, if her death wasn't related to the subject of the thread. *scratching my head*

Harmony, I have enjoyed reading your posts and respect your opinion so often on this forum. You are very wise in so many ways and it shows when you speak out about many topics. Forgive me if I'm scratching my head by your views on this topic. I don't understand your hostility towards Rick about this. Why can't this be a discussion to perhaps come to some possible solutions? Why can't we look at our culture/religion and wonder what part it plays? You know one thing that most of these kids have in common is that they were raised in a strong LDS environment. Don't you think we should look at that?


Tori....shaking her head, wondering why this is so difficult for some people to grasp.

Well, there's the disconnect. You say "You know one thing that most of these kids have in common is that they were raised in a strong LDS environment. " I say what those kids have in common is that they live in Utah. Other kids who don't live in Utah but who are raised in a strong LDS environment don't exhibit these same behaviors to the same extent. So... what is it about Utah, outside of the church, that could be at the root of this problem?

[_Tori]

Oh, Harmony. You are exhausting! Rick is looking for answers. He has seen the problem all too frequently. He ultimately holds the addict responsible. That's what has to be done in order for recovery to be successful. I can tell you that he is hard-nosed about holding them responsible. I've seen him in action first hand.

That is not what he said here. He said the problem was parents who don't offer their children unconditional love. Do I need to quote him again? Surely you can't expect me to answer anything except what is presented here?

You are soooo missing the point we are trying to make. We are asking questions of people among this culture for their feedback of why this is so prevolent in our close and very religious community!

NEWS FLASH!!! Studies show that there is a higher rate of non medical prescription drug use in Utah and specifically in Utah County! Studies show that there is a higher death rate from over doses! Why in the hell is this happening???

Then your forum should be a public forum in Utah and Utah county. This board is made up of very few people who live in Utah and even fewer who live in Utah county. Or else at the least you should have limited the participation of people here to those who are in Utah county, and I would not have joined the thread at all.

You know, I don't really care what the specific statistics are here. Arguing 'stats' doesn't help anything. I just know what I see and I'm seeing kids die. I'm seeing families being destroyed by this demon. It really doesn't take a Rocket Scientist or an official statistician to figure this out. There is definitely a problem in River City and it's high time members of our predominant religion wake up!

You still have not shown that the dominant religion in the area is in any direct way connected to the problem. If you want members of that religion to "wake up", you have to show a direct relationship of the problem to the religion. And you haven't.

And Rick put stats predominantly in his OP. If he didn't want to discuss stats, then don't mention them in the OP. Because that just opens up the door for stats countering the OP.

By the way. My daughter that died was killed in a car accident. It wasn't a drug overdose. She would be in her early twenties. I have NEVER blamed her death on the Church. I have never blamed my other daughter's addiction problems on the Church. Ever! She takes full responsibility for her addiction and is very serious about her sobriety.

I see no reason for your to mention your daughter who is gone at all, if her death wasn't related to the subject of the thread. *scratching my head*

Harmony, I have enjoyed reading your posts and respect your opinion so often on this forum. You are very wise in so many ways and it shows when you speak out about many topics. Forgive me if I'm scratching my head by your views on this topic. I don't understand your hostility towards Rick about this. Why can't this be a discussion to perhaps come to some possible solutions? Why can't we look at our culture/religion and wonder what part it plays? You know one thing that most of these kids have in common is that they were raised in a strong LDS environment. Don't you think we should look at that?


Tori....shaking her head, wondering why this is so difficult for some people to grasp.

Well, there's the disconnect. You say "You know one thing that most of these kids have in common is that they were raised in a strong LDS environment. " I say what those kids have in common is that they live in Utah. Other kids who don't live in Utah but who are raised in a strong LDS environment don't exhibit these same behaviors to the same extent. So... what is it about Utah, outside of the church, that could be at the root of this problem?

I give up.

[_harmony]

First off, I don't consider having a dialog with you a privilege. Drop the attitude.

What attitude? And if you didn't want a conversation with me, why did you address me?

Second, I am amazed at how proud members are to proclaim the percentage of college graduates within the faith - fine, we'll grant you that. Critics have no problem conceding positive points that may occur in the LDS culture. However, once the issue of bankruptcy, depression, drug abuse, or suicide, reaches the news as nation wide leaders in Utah - WHOA - time to run for the hills. The LDS members aren't going to be hearing any of that noise. Don't connect us to that nonsense...and so on.

I don't see what this comment has to do with the current discussion or the subject of the thread. The news has already gone out. Long ago. Anyone interested in the subject can look it all up, just like I did.

Third, you didn't address the main point of my previous post.

Well, then, what was your point? In plain English. Without the anecdotal experience.