God -- A Personal Servant?

Post by **_Roger Morrison** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:19 am

bcs said:

My schooling and profession are scientific

In what field(s) of science? How long have you been LDS? Roger

Post by **_The Nehor** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:09 pm

Love may be selfless but the relationship most often used to typify man's relationship to God is the parent-child one. A child's love for their parent may be somewhat selfless but it is also very much a love based on needs (physical, emotional, spiritual).

Post by **_Moniker** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:32 pm

The Nehor wrote:Love may be selfless but the relationship most often used to typify man's relationship to God is the parent-child one. A child's love for their parent may be somewhat selfless but it is also very much a love based on needs (physical, emotional, spiritual).

Children aren't selfless... usually. They expect lots! It's parents that usually are expected to offer the unconditional love. Not the other way around. :)

Yet, if you're looking for a return do you really love God? It's more a quid pro quo arrangement then. If God expects us to ask him for handouts that sets up the entire relationship as one where there is an expectation of reward for certain BEHAVIORS. That's not unconditional love from God, and it's certainly not unconditional love from those that say they worship He. Why would God want to set up any sort of relationship where those who worship He must grovel to be ahead of the pack?

The entire premise that we must adore and worship God so that we can be rewarded with heaven (just picking the biggest reward for those that worship -- I would think?) makes it a love based on extrinsic rewards.

If there was NO reward, ever, no expectations, NOTHING -- that would appear more like love, to me. The way you frame it as a parent child relationship appears, to me, to be much like those that manipulate their families to get what they "need" or want.

Post by **_Moniker** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:37 pm

asbestosman wrote:From the Bible Dictionary in the LDS Scriptures:

As soon as we learn the true relationship in which we stand toward God (namely, God is our Father, and we are his children), then at once prayer becomes natural and instinctive on our part (Matt. 7: 7-11). Many of the so-called difficulties about prayer arise from forgetting this relationship. Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them. Blessings require some work or effort on our part before we can obtain them. Prayer is a form of work, and is an appointed means for obtaining the highest of all blessings.

Prayer helps us to remember that we are dependent on God. A very important part in LDS prayers is to thank God for that which we have.

I get rather discombobulated when people offer up scripture to explain stuff to me. :)

I think if just thankfulness was an aspect that's different. Yet, being thankful that you can worship He, is something different then expecting something in return. Do people really thank God for misfortunes? Or do they pray to God to change their misfortunes? Blessings are returns for behaviors. Heaven is an expectation of a return for certain behaviors.

Post by **_Moniker** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:40 pm

bcspace wrote:
Who is the servant and who is the master?

Well, it is true that "Ask and ye shall receive." But there are caveats....

And whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is right, believing that ye shall receive, behold it shall be given unto you. 3 Nephi 18:20

Therefore, God is the master and we are the servants.

Masters don't usually run about cursing enemies of His servants.... Masters don't usually swoop down and follow the whims and needs of His servants...

Servants doesn't ask the Master to abide by their needs and wants. A master ask the servants to abide by His needs and wants.

Post by **_The Nehor** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:56 pm

Moniker wrote:
The Nehor wrote:Love may be selfless but the relationship most often used to typify man's relationship to God is the parent-child one. A child's love for their parent may be somewhat selfless but it is also very much a love based on needs (physical, emotional, spiritual).

Children aren't selfless... usually. They expect lots! It's parents that usually are expected to offer the unconditional love. Not the other way around. :)

Yet, if you're looking for a return do you really love God? It's more a quid pro quo arrangement then. If God expects us to ask him for handouts that sets up the entire relationship as one where there is an expectation of reward for certain BEHAVIORS. That's not unconditional love from God, and it's certainly not unconditional love from those that say they worship He. Why would God want to set up any sort of relationship where those who worship He must grovel to be ahead of the pack?

The entire premise that we must adore and worship God so that we can be rewarded with heaven (just picking the biggest reward for those that worship -- I would think?) makes it a love based on extrinsic rewards.

If there was NO reward, ever, no expectations, NOTHING -- that would appear more like love, to me. The way you frame it as a parent child relationship appears, to me, to be much like those that manipulate their families to get what they "need" or want.

Is a parent's love less unconditional when they withhold ice cream from the child who hit their siblings repeatedly that day?

I think God's love is unconditional. My love for him is unfortunately not. I'm the child. I need and I want. Groveling has nothing to do with getting ahead of the pack. Obedience does.

Post by **_The Nehor** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:58 pm

Moniker wrote:Masters don't usually run about cursing enemies of His servants.... Masters don't usually swoop down and follow the whims and needs of His servants...

Servants doesn't ask the Master to abide by their needs and wants. A master ask the servants to abide by His needs and wants.

That depends on if the Master loves his servants...even more so if he hopes that the servants can eventually be trusted to run the estate.

You're also missing the point if you assume God answers every prayer offered and every desire expressed.

Post by **_Moniker** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:03 pm

The Nehor wrote:
Moniker wrote:Masters don't usually run about cursing enemies of His servants.... Masters don't usually swoop down and follow the whims and needs of His servants...

Servants doesn't ask the Master to abide by their needs and wants. A master ask the servants to abide by His needs and wants.

That depends on if the Master loves his servants...even more so if he hopes that the servants can eventually be trusted to run the estate.

You're also missing the point if you assume God answers every prayer offered and every desire expressed.

Am I missing the point? That anyone ASKS anything from God means they EXPECT a return. If they didn't expect anything they would not ask! You can't tell me you don't expect anything from God. You do! You tell me you get blessings, you get special visits, and you're going to go to a lovely heaven some day because God gives these things to you. Right? Would you love God if He never gave you anything?

Post by **_Moniker** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:06 pm

The Nehor wrote:
Is a parent's love less unconditional when they withhold ice cream from the child who hit their siblings repeatedly that day?

I think God's love is unconditional. My love for him is unfortunately not. I'm the child. I need and I want. Groveling has nothing to do with getting ahead of the pack. Obedience does.

Your love for Him is NOT unconditional! That was what I was getting at. How can you say you truly love anything selflessly when you only love He that gives you something in return?

Of course, I suppose, you're alright with this relationship set up. Just struck me as odd, that's all....

Post by **_asbestosman** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:07 pm

Moniker wrote:I think if just thankfulness was an aspect that's different. Yet, being thankful that you can worship He, is something different then expecting something in return. Do people really thank God for misfortunes? Or do they pray to God to change their misfortunes? Blessings are returns for behaviors. Heaven is an expectation of a return for certain behaviors.

I know people who pray for strength to endure misfortunes and then thank God for being able to endure thost things. That's not quite the same as praying for God to change the misfortune.

I think that people start off wanting something from God. Perhaps most of us stay in that state. However, I believe there are those (not saying I'm there yet) who worship God because God is the sort of being they wish they were like--loving, knowledgable, patient, etc. Similarly, I probably started loving my parents because of what they did for me: fed me, read to me, played with me, etc. Now I respect my parents by what they are. I respect my mother for her math abilities and my father for his abilities to see things from many angles. I respect their experiences which provide me with perspective. I respect them for some of the their own weaknesses which I have seen them overcome through the years.

Will my relaitonship with God ever mature past the point of me wanting something from Him to the point where I admire what He is and therefore wish to develop that in myself? Time will tell. Until then, I don't necessarily think it's wrong to start out with loving God because of what He provides instead of a more mature worshiping God because of Who He is. Yet even with that maturity, I think it is important to keep in mind how much He actually does provide and to remain thankful for it. Or maybe depending on God isn't so bad.

I don't think selfishness is inherently evil. I think selfishness is wrong only when leads to concern for yourself to the exclusion of others. Concern for your own welfare, on the other hand, seems like a virtue if handled appropriately. In the case of worshiping God, I think it would be wrong if we only worshiped Him because of what He will do for us instead of also worshping Him for His attributes--attributes that we admire and perhaps wish to emulate ourselves.