"Happy Valley," the movie; drug abuse in Zion

[_harmony]

I give up.

Why? Because I don't agree? Because you think I don't get it? Because I see a different source for your problem, so I am automatically wrong?

Good grief.

[_BishopRic]

I give up.

Why? Because I don't agree? Because you think I don't get it? Because I see a different source for your problem, so I am automatically wrong?

Good grief.

No, I think it is because you are not getting what we are trying to say. If you think there is nothing in the church culture that creates significant guilt, shame, lack of self-worth, and/or lack of feeling accepted and loved as they are, then I think you are mistaken. There is much within that statement that the church can change and emphasize that will help improve the homes to give the message that the kids and spouses can talk to the others about their problems in a more open and less judgmental way. That's all.

You appear to have taken a leap to conclude that we are saying that it is only the LDS church that does this. We are not. And of course there are many other factors that contribute, but because of the clear correlation between the % of LDS families in Utah and what we know in the field about the causes of addiction, and our experiences of thousands of addicts here telling us what has happened to them, and the statistics I quoted in my OP, one would have to be blind or in deep denial not to see the connection.

Of course other cultures have the same problems, that is not the point. This is a Mormon discussion board, and if we can open some eyes and hearts by having a conversation about it, that's all we can ask for. Denying there is a problem doesn't help, nor does getting defensive about the church. It's real here, that's all we know for sure. And we can save lives by getting the word out as to what can be changed in the homes.

Of course personal responsibility is important, but until a person feels loved and worthy, they are not going to begin to understand that concept. Treatment begins with feeling heard. Once that is accomplished, the teaching can begin.

[_karl61]

Harmony - do you believe the LDS church culture can be abusive. Do you think people giving their opinions as unwavering truth can put stress on people. Do you belive church courts can cause pyschological harm to people. Do you believe that a lot of people who would not lie in most circumstances lie when questioned alone in a room about their sex life; if they do, does this impact their self worth. Does Religion cause people to live in a fantasy world which some sayis one step short of mental illness.

[_Maxrep]

Harmony,

I don't mean to pile on, as you have alot of folk to respond to. My main point earlier was this: Utah has a very unique culture. Temple Square, BYU, Church headquarters, lots of temples, and so on and so on. Heck, even the beer is different in Utah than other states. Comparing Utah to other states that are next in line for LDS populations, isn't really that effective as Utah dwarfs them in its own Mormon dominance, as well as its community, which can really only be found in Utah. No other state is like Utah. Only residents of this state experience life in "Happy Valley".

[_Trinity]

A couple of things before my Monday morning runs away with me.

I have lived 18 years outside the Utah Mormon corridor and 22 years inside the Utah Mormon corridor. The cultural contrasts are dramatic. Outside Utah, the Mormons are kind of on their own, and have that unique perspective that lends to some individuality. Inside Mormonism, it is Pleasantville, where the sameness creates a superficial homogenized culture. It doesn't matter what you feel on the inside, the outside falls in line with everyone else. Where you may find the rogue "happy happy joy joy" Mormon individual outside Utah, in Utah that one "happy happy joy joy person" becomes the standard of conduct which everyone feels they must live up to. You don't verbalize anything negative because the peer conformity deems you don't want to be seen as not lacking in the Spirit. And this is now on a broad scale because there is virtually no difference between the Mormon community and the overall community.

I think it is the concentration of Mormon rather than Mormonism itself that breeds this ugly cultural beast.

Secondly, I've posted stats of the juvenile drug treatment centers on this board before. Thousands of adolescents are processed through these treatment centers each year. You will note that I mentioned the drug bust of just last week where daily distribution numbers are 5,000 for just a single drug operation. When I was growing up outside Utah, this was a nonexistent situation. There were a few people in my high school that I knew did drugs and they were stigmatized and isolated from the norm. Here in Utah, it is the opposite, and that bishop is wrong in his comment about this being a "private addiction." Junior and high school students openly pass dealers phone numbers to each other in the hall between classes. When my daughter was doing drugs, she wasn't skulking in a basement in a dark part of town. She was doing them at open parties in mansions in Alpine. You know all that drug education where the schools and the parents teach their children the dangers of doing drugs? I will even bet these kids parents warned them about "raves." Well, the kids don't care. These rich, Mormon kids don't care. And the cops openly discuss their frustrations and overwhelm with what they call an ongoing epidemic in our area. My daughter was not involved in the church scene when we moved here. In fact, her only real connection to Mormonism were her Mormon drug friends.

Thirdly, we all blame the addict. They are responsible for their choices, their actions. My daughter, through her actions, lost most of her teen years. She spent a year and a half in treatment centers and I came very close (as she was nearing 18) to having her permanently institutionalized because of her seeming inability to resist the lifestyle). If anything, we tend to blame them more because their actions create a domino effect that plows through families and communities in such a destructive, disruptive, and long-lasting manner. Believe me when I tell you there is a deep and abiding anger for the pain caused by drugs. Loss of hope, loss of optimism, derailment of dreams. Not only on an individual level, but a family and social level as well.

[_BishopRic]

Believe me when I tell you there is a deep and abiding anger for the pain caused by drugs. Loss of hope, loss of optimism, derailment of dreams. Not only on an individual level, but a family and social level as well.

True that! Thanks Trinity.

I also want to emphasize that it is not in the church's teachings that this culture is the way it is. I don't think we hear from the pulpit "don't talk to your kids about their issues," or "don't hang with the kids that don't go to church." Quite the opposite. It's just that there are certain teachings that are emphasized more than others (how many members have their 2-year food supply?), and I think the best measure of what the true beliefs are is to look at the results. The results show the things I've said earlier -- for many, certainly not all -- and there is much room for improvement.

[_harmony]

Harmony,

I don't mean to pile on, as you have alot of folk to respond to. My main point earlier was this: Utah has a very unique culture. Temple Square, BYU, Church headquarters, lots of temples, and so on and so on. Heck, even the beer is different in Utah than other states. Comparing Utah to other states that are next in line for LDS populations, isn't really that effective as Utah dwarfs them in its own Mormon dominance, as well as its community, which can really only be found in Utah. No other state is like Utah. Only residents of this state experience life in "Happy Valley".

1. Everyone wants to think they are unique. And maybe they are. But to say that Utah is unique, as if no one else is unique, is not correct.

2. You say this like you think Mormon culture is any different outside the Zion Curtain. Like the pressures are less and the culture is less effective in the lives of the members. I don't see that. My ward is about as Mormon as can be, as Utah Mormon as can be. It's bizarre, how Utah my ward is, and I'm a thousand miles away from Utah! Our youth go to LDS colleges, our boys go on missions, our youth are married in the temple to people they met at LDS colleges, anyone who steps outside the line is marginalized, anyone who is different is marginalized. And guess what: our youth don't turn to drugs or suicide. WHY IS THAT?

[_harmony]

I give up.

Why? Because I don't agree? Because you think I don't get it? Because I see a different source for your problem, so I am automatically wrong?

Good grief.

No, I think it is because you are not getting what we are trying to say. If you think there is nothing in the church culture that creates significant guilt, shame, lack of self-worth, and/or lack of feeling accepted and loved as they are, then I think you are mistaken. There is much within that statement that the church can change and emphasize that will help improve the homes to give the message that the kids and spouses can talk to the others about their problems in a more open and less judgmental way. That's all.

I never said the church doesn't create all those things you say it creates. But if it does, then why aren't we seeing a similiar problem everywhere the church exists? Why are we only seeing that problem in Utah? in Utah county? What is unique about Utah/Utah county that doesn't exist anywhere else in the church????

You appear to have taken a leap to conclude that we are saying that it is only the LDS church that does this. We are not. And of course there are many other factors that contribute, but because of the clear correlation between the % of LDS families in Utah and what we know in the field about the causes of addiction, and our experiences of thousands of addicts here telling us what has happened to them, and the statistics I quoted in my OP, one would have to be blind or in deep denial not to see the connection.

I asked you for more information about this. You haven't given it to me. According to the census, there are about 100,000 families in Utah county. How many of those families are effected by drug abuse? 2000? 10,000? Show me some documentation, please. And show me how many of those families are LDS.

Of course other cultures have the same problems, that is not the point.

On the contrary, that is the point! You can't blame the church, if other cultures have the same problems!

This is a Mormon discussion board, and if we can open some eyes and hearts by having a conversation about it, that's all we can ask for. Denying there is a problem doesn't help, nor does getting defensive about the church. It's real here, that's all we know for sure. And we can save lives by getting the word out as to what can be changed in the homes.

I am the last person to defend the church, but I also don't think it's fair to heap unwarranted accusations onto already beleagured LDS parents. It's hard enough to raise a family without having one of the children get caught in the drug buzzsaw. Blaming the church won't help, unless you can clearly connect the church or the culture to the problem.

Of course personal responsibility is important, but until a person feels loved and worthy, they are not going to begin to understand that concept. Treatment begins with feeling heard. Once that is accomplished, the teaching can begin.

Treatment begins with acknowledging that there is a problem. Repentence works the same way.

[_harmony]

My daughter was not involved in the church scene when we moved here. In fact, her only real connection to Mormonism were her Mormon drug friends.

Then how can anyone blame the church, when they weren't part of the church anyway?

[_BishopRic]

I asked you for more information about this. You haven't given it to me.

See the movie. You'll understand.