Where is the Joy in Mormonism?

[_Mister Scratch]

Fair enough. But I'm still interested in seeing evidence for real, concrete, "external" joy---something within the Church which can objectively be labeled, "joyous."

Here's a dozen:

1. Any Elder's Quorum party where Harley Davidson motorcycles are the decorations.
2. the High Priest Corn Feed
3. The 24th of July celebration in the park
4. the New Year's Eve Party
5. the Christmas in Bethlehem activity
6. listening to special music numbers that skirt the decree.
7. the picture of Christ that still hangs in my chapel, 30 years after we were ordered to take it down.
8. dances in the parking lot for the opening social after school starts every year
9. water skiing for Mutual.
10. Girls' Camp
11. the father's face, after blessing the baby
12. playing with my grandkids in the foyer.

Why thank you, Harmony! These were precisely the sorts of things I had in mind. It's a pity Wade was unable to come up with anything.

[_wenglund]

Wade, I must have misread your intent. I saw the ;-) and made assumptions. If you say it was not your intent to imply that ill things were said about other faiths I accept that. For some reason or another, when I read your posts lately they do come across as judgmental -- even when you say they're not meant in that manner. Perhaps, it's just me? Do I need to do some introspection? ;)

In am not inclined to judge you in need of introspection since that may rightly be deemed as judgemental. ;-)

However, I am not one to discourage the practice--particularly upon finding it quite beneficial myself.

For what it is worth, some of the ways that I try and avoid mistaking judgementalism with generic comment and advise, are to look for specifically directed pronoun like "you" as opposed to "I" or "we", active as opposed to passive voice, specific directed accusations and personal criticisms as opposed to general recommendations and things oneself may find advantageous, etc.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Mercury]

For me, Mormon services were utterly joyless. The music was boring. The speakers were usually boring because they didn't want to be there, either. I rarely felt better for having gone to my meetings, and I usually felt worse. Often, I felt condemned for not doing enough.

Like me, many of my fellow ward members attended meetings and went through other routines because they were compelled--not by love of God, but by fear or duty or a burdensome sense of responsibility. I dreaded meetings.

Everything was so boring and overly-controlled by some distant, seemingly uncaring authority. We, as a ward, had little autonomy. When I taught Primary, a Stake rule was implemented that we weren't to give the children any snacks. Church was where they were to learn the gospel, not have cookies. For a while, we ignored the rule, but eventually the Bishop put his foot down and that was that. Those three year olds lost their Goldfish crackers. And I lost what remaining respect I had for the Stake Presidency.


KA

I think you are seeing your other ward members through your own eyes. Most of the members I go to Church with seem to be quite happy to be there.

Remember that Twilight zone movie where the family is SO HAPPY to please the boy with the superpowers? that's what Mormon "happiness" reminds me of.

[_Mercury]

Fair enough. But I'm still interested in seeing evidence for real, concrete, "external" joy---something within the Church which can objectively be labeled, "joyous."

Here's a dozen:

1. Any Elder's Quorum party where Harley Davidson motorcycles are the decorations.
2. the High Priest Corn Feed
3. The 24th of July celebration in the park
4. the New Year's Eve Party
5. the Christmas in Bethlehem activity
6. listening to special music numbers that skirt the decree.
7. the picture of Christ that still hangs in my chapel, 30 years after we were ordered to take it down.
8. dances in the parking lot for the opening social after school starts every year
9. water skiing for Mutual.
10. Girls' Camp
11. the father's face, after blessing the baby
12. playing with my grandkids in the foyer.

Why thank you, Harmony! These were precisely the sorts of things I had in mind. It's a pity Wade was unable to come up with anything.

I don't think Wade ever really has been exposed to the ward social activity. I'm just guessing here but im going to say that instead he was enjoying his latest copy of a bodybuilder magazine instead of attending the saturday conference priesthood session ice cream party.

[_ajax18]

However, I think your point is well taken about "the Church" (particularly local leaders) perhaps needing to improve on utilizing more positive forms of motivation. Perhaps such improvements may be affected by kindly informing them of how such would be in there interest, rather than resorting to guilt and condemnation--not that you were doing that. ;-)

P.S. I hope all is going well with school (that is, if you haven't completed it already).

I would have to say that I see more of the positive forms of motivation in my small family ward and local level. The negative forms of motivation seemed to come more during my mission and BYU experience, a step above the local level.

For instance, as a missionary the MTC leaders asked me why I was doing the mission. I quoted Matthew, "Laying up treasure in heavan." They frowned on this and said it was selfish. I should be serving out of love for these people (who I'd never met) That scripture is a part of who I am and always will be. I also believe this scripture is fundamentally different from the idea that, The highest motivation is to obey solely out of love for God, or simply do what's right because it's right, with no further explanation or reason. In this way I hold a fundamentally different view on life than most people, including Church members. I'm not sure how the Church is going to fit into that, but I believe that scripture for what it says, and inasmuch as the views of the people of the Church go against that and pressure me to go against it as well, I will not be a part of it.

I understand what you're saying about people needing different forms of motivation at different times. What I take issue with is one form of motivation being higher than the other. The promise is either true or it is not. We don't choose the promise God has made. We only choose to accept it or not.

I've also noticed that many so called believers seem from my view to have no true belief in the justice of eternity. They claim that they believe God is just, God is fair, and our spirits are eternal, and yet they squabble so hotly over the slightest injustices, as if they have to collect now or never.

[_wenglund]

However, I think your point is well taken about "the Church" (particularly local leaders) perhaps needing to improve on utilizing more positive forms of motivation. Perhaps such improvements may be affected by kindly informing them of how such would be in there interest, rather than resorting to guilt and condemnation--not that you were doing that. ;-)

P.S. I hope all is going well with school (that is, if you haven't completed it already).

I would have to say that I see more of the positive forms of motivation in my small family ward and local level. The negative forms of motivation seemed to come more during my mission and BYU experience, a step above the local level.

For instance, as a missionary the MTC leaders asked me why I was doing the mission. I quoted Matthew, "Laying up treasure in heavan." They frowned on this and said it was selfish. I should be serving out of love for these people (who I'd never met) That scripture is a part of who I am and always will be. I also believe this scripture is fundamentally different from the idea that, The highest motivation is to obey solely out of love for God, or simply do what's right because it's right, with no further explanation or reason. In this way I hold a fundamentally different view on life than most people, including Church members. I'm not sure how the Church is going to fit into that, but I believe that scripture for what it says, and inasmuch as the views of the people of the Church go against that and pressure me to go against it as well, I will not be a part of it.

I can respect that.

I understand what you're saying about people needing different forms of motivation at different times. What I take issue with is one form of motivation being higher than the other. The promise is either true or it is not. We don't choose the promise God has made. We only choose to accept it or not.

I see it somewhat differently. To me, ordinal rankings (such as higher levels of motivation) aren't truth rankings. The promises given for presumably lower form of motivation are made no less true than the promises for the presumed higher forms of motivation by virtue of viewing it as higher. Think of this in terms of lower and higher laws, where the "old law" under Moses may rightly be considered the lower law, and the "new law" instituted by Christ as the higher law. The promises given under the old or lower law of Moses are made no less true because they are presumably lower than the higher or new law in Christ.

I've also noticed that many so called believers seem from my view to have no true belief in the justice of eternity. They claim that they believe God is just, God is fair, and our spirits are eternal, and yet they squabble so hotly over the slightest injustices, as if they have to collect now or never.

I can't speak to what they may or may not believe since I can't read their minds. And, if they may feel the need to squabble hotly over matters of justice, then what is that to me? As long as I or any other innocent party am not the subject of the squabble, I will leave there choices between them and God, and simply decide differently for myself. Its not my place to judge. Besides, I find positive value in not doing so. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_ajax18]

It isn't anything to me when people squabble. I'm just pointing out that it seems that one can measure what a person truly believes more by how they act than what they proclaim.

I'm not sure if I understand the idea of happiness. Sometimes it seems that everything has it's oppposite and the universe must always return to a balance. So if you were lucky enough to experience happiness at one point, you'll inevitably be unlucky enough to experience an equal amount of unhappiness at another. We appreciate the good times and suffer through the bad.

It seems that for almost anything good, we can think of a disadvantage that comes along with it, that at least reduces it back to zero at some point. For anything bad, we can also see a silver lining, that at least moves it back up to zero at some point. It sounds depressing, but I'm not sure any other explanation makes sense.

[_wenglund]

It isn't anything to me when people squabble. I'm just pointing out that it seems that one can measure what a person truly believes more by how they act than what they proclaim.

The difficulty I have found in judging people's beliefs based on their actions is that for many actions there are a multitude of rational aexplanations that may be given, of which at least some may not necessarily be inconsistent or incompatible with one's proclaimed beliefs--though I do think there is some value at times in using deductive reasoning such as this in some cases.

I'm not sure if I understand the idea of happiness. Sometimes it seems that everything has it's oppposite and the universe must always return to a balance. So if you were lucky enough to experience happiness at one point, you'll inevitably be unlucky enough to experience an equal amount of unhappiness at another. We appreciate the good times and suffer through the bad.

It seems that for almost anything good, we can think of a disadvantage that comes along with it, that at least reduces it back to zero at some point. For anything bad, we can also see a silver lining, that at least moves it back up to zero at some point. It sounds depressing, but I'm not sure any other explanation makes sense.

I enjoy listening to Dennis Prager's "Happiness Hour" on the radio, and a week-or-so ago he made what I thought to be a salient point similar to yours. He remarked about how, during his youth, he travelled around India, and was struck not only by the pervasive and abject poverty, but also by the stupifying amount of genuine happiness on the faces of most the people. He concluded from that that happiness is not inextricably tied to personal wealth.

However, he went on to observe that perhaps part of the reason the Indians may have failed to raise themselves up out of their impoverished conditions, and make life-improving advancements, was because they were happy with what they had.

From that, I concluded that a certain level of discontentment (the yang to the happiness ying--or the opposition that you mentioned) is need for progression. It is good for us to experience unhappiness and discontentment from time to time so as to progress towards full and lasting happiness, or to become the very best we can be.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_ajax18]

It isn't anything to me when people squabble. I'm just pointing out that it seems that one can measure what a person truly believes more by how they act than what they proclaim.

The difficulty I have found in judging people's beliefs based on their actions is that for many actions there are a multitude of rational aexplanations that may be given, of which at least some may not necessarily be inconsistent or incompatible with one's proclaimed beliefs--though I do think there is some value at times in using deductive reasoning such as this in some cases.

Good point. I could be oversimplifying things a bit. The same idea seems to hold with death to a degree. I know there is nothing wrong with being sad, and yet I didn't really feel that sad for President Hinckley. I liked him and was sad to see him leave, but the overwhelming feeling was one of pride in his accomplishments and happiness for where he is now.

Well, it's back to school.

[_Gazelam]

Kim,

I fully understand that your new church is considered fun. I also have no doubt that there are many Methodists that are better at living the christian lifestyle than many Mormons you know. As brother Kimball stated (or was it Benson?) "Attitude determines your altitude". There are many traditions in the Mormon sacrament that are in fact merely traditions. For example, there is nothing on record that states that the Bishopric is to sit on the stand. They just do.

We do seek to be reverent. And I see nothing inappropriate in that. We also administer the sacrament in each and every meeting, and give the ordinance its proper respect and dignity it deserves. Could it be that the Mormon Church meeting is somber in many regards because it is approprite? It is also amusing, fun, and oftentimes insightful, depending on the member that has been called to speak that day. Is their any other church that is more capable of beign whatever the members themselves seek to make it? Its the mebership themselves who give the lessons, and choose the songs!

Once youve settled in to your "fun" new church, try to look into the real issues. Take a look at why your really there. Ask the Pastor what his opinion of Adam is. Ask him what he understands concernign the Fall and its effects.

Ask him what happens to all of the peopel in China who die without a knowledge of Christ.

Ask him about where he got his authority.

Ask him about the necessity of Baptism, and who has the right to seal the name of Christ on a persons head.

Ask him about the nature of God and the Trinity.

And when Joseph denounced the other churches, he was denouncing the doctrine of the Trintiy, because it is a false doctrine and skews the proper view of our Father in Heaven.

when your done tasteign their Milk, let us know how their meat tastes. My guess is is that its been severly undercooked, and a bad cut to boot. I guess they had a bad recipie to start with.