Freedom?????s just another word for ?????nothing left to lose?????

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_The Dude
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Post by _The Dude »

beastie wrote:I thought that was strange – someone isn’t even active in the LDS church but yet is motivated enough to come on an internet message board and defend it ardently? What’s up with that?


All we can do is speculate. Even for our own actions, all we can do is speculate and constantly revise the story we tell ourselves about why we act the way we do. It's pointless to spend time on this, in my opinion. And it looks really bad if you aren't careful. Your clarifications help.

I want to be clear. I am NOT talking about the majority of apologists. I am wondering why people who can't even bothered to be fully active in the LDS church or follow its main guidelines come on to internet boards and play the part of Ardent Defender of the Faith.

I also want to clarify I'm not talking about some "secret sin". I'm talking about people who have admitted that they are not fully active or have problems with some church commandment. I am wondering if being a super TBM on an internet board makes them feel less guilty for their real life perceived inadequacies.


Or maybe their real life activities make them feel less guilty about being a super TBM on an internet board. Maybe they sin to let off steam.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

All we can do is speculate. Even for our own actions, all we can do is speculate and constantly revise the story we tell ourselves about why we act the way we do. It's pointless to spend time on this, in my opinion. And it looks really bad if you aren't careful. Your clarifications help.



Very true. I'm not even sure why I continue to post on Mormon boards. But I can't help but wonder about these folks (the ones who, by their own admission, aren't fully active or "worthy" but post as ardent defenders of the faith).

Or maybe their real life activities make them feel less guilty about being a super TBM on an internet board. Maybe they sin to let off steam.


heh. Maybe. There were times, in the past, when "debating" with True Believers just about drove me to drink myself.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Mister Scratch wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:The reason Nehor is here is because he is one of my two Malevolent Stalkers (TM). Coggins is the other one.


I was sure your relationship to me was more like a creepy perverted uncle but whatever works.


Well, this rather proves my point, doesn't it, my dear Malevolent Stalker #1 (TM). I submit a post, and whaddya know! here you are to comment, and to cast personal judgment on someone you've never met!


I feel no shame in making judgments about internet personalities who show too much interest in my sexual life. Most people I know don't.


Malevolent Stalker #1 (TM),

You will be hard-pressed to demonstrate that I've "show[n] ... interest" in your sexual life. At best, you'll find some instances where I have responded to comments made by Mercury and/or Polygamy Porter. You yourself once observed that you "sit around masturbating all day," did you not? Now, you may be embarrassed at having said that, but that's your problem. Elsewhere, you suggested that I am a homosexual:

Nehor wrote:I don't know what scares me more? That I might have the look of a "compulsive masturbator" or that you and Merc have studied this enough that you both think you know what it looks like? The latter might cause my gaydar to go off.


It appears that you've once again been hamstrung by your own hypocrisy, my dear Malevolent Stalker #1 (TM).


No, I feel no embarassment at that comment. It was a throwaway comment in jest because Merc and Porter had just been mentioning it a lot. It would have a died a quick death but it seems the comment intrigued you at least. You made it one of the key elements in your dossier on me showing a rather unhealthy interest. At least that's the way this nebbish poster sees it.

No, I suggested you showed an unhealthy interest in another man's sexuality and that might cause me to suspect you of being a homosexual. For all I know, you're bisexual, a woman, or a hermaphrodite. Care to enlighten us so we're not just guessing?

Edit: The constant references to me preceded by 'my dear' don't help either.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

The Dude wrote:We've all seen it. Apologists who say, "Sethbag says he left because he learned about church doctrine and history, but that's not the real reason. He left because he had a problem with masturbation, or he committed adultry... those are the real reasons behind his actions. The more he protests that it was about the facts, the more sure we are that it was about secret sins." Man I hate that. I know you do to.

But how is it any different to say RayA or Will Schryver defend the church, not because of their stated reasons, but to compensate for [insert some collection of LDS sins here]?

This is wrong, guys. I suggest you disavow this thinking before Pahoran or Selek gets wind of it.

I would agree with you in general, but the question was specifically about Defenders whom we actually know aren't faithful, church-going, temple-worthy members. Ray A for example, who may not have darkened the doorway of an LDS chapel in decades. I think it's legitimate to discuss the reasons behind someone playing the faithful defender on message boards but then not living the lifestyle in their real life.

As for the apologists who say I just left because I wanted to sin, well, there's no evidence whatsoever that that really is the case, so it's all pure speculation. I see your point, and your advice is probably sound, but I think there is at least a little bit of difference in the two topics.
Last edited by Anonymous on Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

'why me' is another great example.

reminds me of the movie 'constantine' (great movie).
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

Has Will still not admitted the April Fools joke here?
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

He admitted it, more or less, on the poll thread "Has Will Schryver really left the church"?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I don't understand how anybody can think Will was serious in the OP. His post was so full of tired and overblown stereotypes that I think it would best be described as an attack on people who really have left the Church. So yes, William has been an apt observer of Mormon rhetoric against exmos and included a number of "standard clichés and motifs" of said rhetoric. But no, I don't think he really understands the "exmo world".




Yes, the tired and overblown stereotypes typical of the standard, stock-in-trade exmo exit story. If this is what he's doing, then he has the genra and its components down to a fine point.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_BishopRic
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Post by _BishopRic »

Coggins7 wrote:
I don't understand how anybody can think Will was serious in the OP. His post was so full of tired and overblown stereotypes that I think it would best be described as an attack on people who really have left the Church. So yes, William has been an apt observer of Mormon rhetoric against exmos and included a number of "standard clichés and motifs" of said rhetoric. But no, I don't think he really understands the "exmo world".




Yes, the tired and overblown stereotypes typical of the standard, stock-in-trade exmo exit story. If this is what he's doing, then he has the genra and its components down to a fine point.


Yes, for some reason our stories all sound the same, don't they. Let's see, "they found the papyrus, it wasn't written by Abraham, so Joseph lied;" "he married at least 33 women, some teenagers, some other men's wives...how could a man like that be the chosen prophet to restore God's one and only true gospel..." Funny how we all see problems with things like that.

And of course the stereotype TBM statements of "I know the church is true, I love my mommy and daddy, Joseph's Myth was a profit...." -- good thing they are so individual and unique!
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
truth.] - Friedrich Nietzsche
_William Schryver
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Post by _William Schryver »

My, my, my. I apostatize for a day, just to see how it feels, and then I spend the next day hung over and ashamed, and by the time I get back to Shadyville, I find I missed out on all sorts of fun!

Sethbag:
Will stop, you're freaking me out. You're wayyyyyyyyyyyy too good at this. ;-)

I’ve learned from the best here in Shadyville.


CKS:
Will's thread here is reading you your Miranda rights, though, all you potential foolees. Everything (apologetically useful) you write herein can and will be used against you, I'd guess.

His linguistic slipperiness is both intentional and premeditated.

You have the right to remain silent … but you just … can’t … help … yourself.


Coggins:
Just a spoonful of Kool-Aid helps the medicine go down. As a set of rationalizations for leaving the Church, this is rather standard potboiler stuff; shallow, self serving, and vain.

I think you mean “boilerplate”.


Beastie:
There is one part of Will's prank that I find very believable - that he's not that active in the church. After seeing several surprising confessions, over the years, by defenders of the faith regarding their minimal or nonexistent level of "real life" church activity, I have come to believe that a significant percentage of online defenders of the faith are either inactive or nominally active, or they have struggled with issues that would prevent them from obtaining temple recommends. Maybe something serious, like an affair, or WoW infractions, or something questionable like addiction to internet porn and/or masturbation. I wonder if they think by posting in defense of the church they're earning heavenly brownie points that compensate for their other problems. Or do they mentally count this as a form of "missionary work" so they can put a little check in that To Do column?

Well, well, well . . . now isn’t this interesting?

Yes, dear, it’s true. My leaving the church has nothing to do with historical issues, truth claims, etc., etc. I have lost my testimony because . . . I am a sinner!

And thus the formula for apostasy is laid bare for all to see.


Coggins:
If this was a prank, then just take my comments above and save them for the next confession or exit story that appears here, as it will probably, in typical potboiler fashion, be applicable to my analysis.

I think you mean “boilerplate”.
If this is a prank, then William has been a wry and diligent observer of the exmo world for some time, as his approach was a textbook example of most of the standard clichés and motifs of this mentality.

As beastie has confirmed in most eloquent fashion, all apostasy is, at its root, due to transgression.


CK:
I don't understand how anybody can think Will was serious in the OP. His post was so full of tired and overblown stereotypes that I think it would best be described as an attack on people who really have left the Church. So yes, William has been an apt observer of Mormon rhetoric against exmos and included a number of "standard clichés and motifs" of said rhetoric. But no, I don't think he really understands the "exmo world".
Of course not. Their thought processes are so completely alien to my experience that I cannot even approach an understanding of their world, their motivations, etc., etc. At least not as well as a nevermo like you. Maybe if I sin more . . . ?


The Dude:
Beastie, are you saying Will and other online apologists will apostatize because they are guilty of some secret sin? Are you saying guilt is a basic motivation for them?

Hello!

The Dude shows again why I like him so much.

But, of course, everyone knows that sin is the path to apostasy. It was for you, too. So why don’t you ‘fess up and give us all the sordid details?


Quaker:
It's like an internet messageboard Andy Kaufman experience. I love it. Thanks Will.

If you believe they put a man on the moon . . .


The Dude:
We've all seen it. Apologists who say, "Sethbag says he left because he learned about church doctrine and history, but that's not the real reason. He left because he had a problem with masturbation, or he committed adultry... those are the real reasons behind his actions. The more he protests that it was about the facts, the more sure we are that it was about secret sins." Man I hate that. I know you do to.

But how is it any different to say RayA or Will Schryver defend the church, not because of their stated reasons, but to compensate for [insert some collection of LDS sins here]?

This is wrong, guys. I suggest you disavow this thinking before Pahoran or Selek gets wind of it.

Looks like a PR debacle in the making, huh?


Beastie:
No, I actually don’t believe Will is going to apostatize at all. He already knows too much, and still retains faith, for me to think that knowledge is going to undermine his faith. He’s one I view as a True Believer.

And I have the bomb vest to prove it.
I do think he may have been truthful in stating he’s minimally active.

Now that I don’t have to attend stake presidency meetings twice a week, I’ve become as “minimally active” as possible. If they didn’t let me pick the hymns and play the organ each week, I wouldn’t go at all. Well, that and my wife expects me to show up for her gospel doctrine classes. Oh, and they need someone to play the piano in priesthood meeting. But other than that, I’m as disaffected and spiritually mediocre as the next guy.
I will admit that part of what prompted this musing on my part was that Will’s post reminded me of the rumor that went around ZLMB at one time regarding his possible inactivity as well.

They had rumors about me on a message board I’ve never been on? Strange.
I am wondering if being a super TBM on an internet board makes them feel less guilty for their real life perceived inadequacies.

No. I feel worse. My life is a tawdry contradiction of sin and pretense. Oh, how I hate myself . . .


The Dude:
Or maybe their real life activities make them feel less guilty about being a super TBM on an internet board. Maybe they sin to let off steam.

No. We sin because . . . the devil tempts us and we yield to his enticements.

And, in the immortal words of Bonnie Parker:
… death is the wages of sin.

http://www.cinetropic.com/janeloisemorr ... rpoem.html
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
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