False enough for me

[_Tarski]

BCSpace indicates that nothing is doctrine unless it is declared so by both the FP and the Qo12.

But,...


Where is the list of doctrines that the FP and the Qo12 have made official doctrine by joint declaration? Where are the declarations? Spread all over in a disorganized way? Nonexistent? I am interested in knowing what they left out.

One big problem is that Mormons like have invented a private and idiosyncratic interpretation of scriptures so as to keep what ever distorted bits of science they feel the need to keep.
They also refuse to be pinned down by anything and we are led in a circle
Were does the doctrinal buck stop?

its the scriptures!
no, its the words of the living prophets
no its the spirit
no its the scriptures

round and round

This dance is there to keep things indefinite so that the church can never be proven false once and for all.

But,...


Let's just say that the following facts make the church false enough for me:

1. Prophets and seers of the past have repeatedly made statements to the world and congregation that are contrary to scientific fact.
2. Prophets in the early church have made public statements contrary to what present day prophets say especially with regard to race and gender.
3. Mormon scriptures make statements contrary to scientific fact if read without doing violence to the ordinary meaning of words.
4. Educated Mormons are in direct conflict with each other over what is, or is not, doctrine (its a house of confusion).
(Most Mormon believe things contrary to science and that exactly because they say it is doctrine.)


That's false enough for me, but there is also all the problems with the Book of Abraham (false translation) and nonexistence Book of Mormon archeology not to mention the fact that the modern church doesn't look anything like the early church in terms of visions, supposed miracles and manifestations. The Mormon church is just as ossified and institutional as the catholic church. It is also boring, dry, repetitive, droning, and aesthetically business-like in dress and architecture. It is filled with stereotypical rightwing pro-establishment dogma that flies in the face of Christ’s rather liberal anti-establishment message:

Quote:
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give it to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

[_Infymus]

Let's just say that the following facts make the church false enough for me:

1. Prophets and seers of the past have repeatedly made statements to the world and congregation that are contrary to scientific fact.
2. Prophets in the early church have made public statements contrary to what present day prophets say especially with regard to race and gender.
3. Mormon scriptures make statements contrary to scientific fact if read without doing violence to the ordinary meaning of words.
4. Educated Mormons are in direct conflict with each other over what is, or is not, doctrine (its a house of confusion).
(Most Mormon believe things contrary to science and that exactly because they say it is doctrine.)


That's false enough for me, but there is also all the problems with the Book of Abraham (false translation) and nonexistence Book of Mormon archeology not to mention the fact that the modern church doesn't look anything like the early church in terms of visions, supposed miracles and manifestations. The Mormon church is just as ossified and institutional as the catholic church. It is also boring, dry, repetitive, droning, and aesthetically business-like in dress and architecture.

I was seriously considering posting this to the Mormon Curtain this morning. I think you've absolutely nailed it.

But you can't argue with the Cult members. You will always be dismissed. Wasn't speaking as a man, that isn't cannon, or the new one now - just because hundreds of Bishops are doing X - because it isn't in the cannon somewhere, it really isn't happening.

Regardless, I've saved this nugget.

[_The Nehor]

Just to clarify it stops with the Spirit...period.

[_Moniker]

Just to clarify it stops with the Spirit...period.

Oh! Goody! I'm soooo glad you mentioned the Spirit! WHAT is the spirit?

Seriously, Nehor -- how can the Spirit guide a Church when "it" tells Prophets contradictory things and the members contradictory information? This baffles me!

Quite seriously -- befuddled at how this works!! Explain slowly to a heathen....

[_asbestosman]

Just to clarify it stops with the Spirit...period.

Which works wonderful for those who are able to clearly discern the spirit. Unfortunately for me, I'm not one of them.

Was Joseph Smith able to clearly discern the spirit? If the story is correct, what about the time he received a revelation to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon to Canada? According to the story, Joseph is purported to say that some revelations are of Satan. Regardless, there is also the story of Hiram Paige who didn't initially realize that his seer stone received revelations from Satan.

[_Sethbag]

I'm squarely behind Tarski on this one. He's hit the nail on the head. There are so many reasons why the LDS church looks just as manmade as all the other churches, that it's hard to fathom what reason there is to believe that, unlike all the other untrue churches, it really is true after all. It's just not there. It's wishful thinking.

[_The Nehor]

Just to clarify it stops with the Spirit...period.

Oh! Goody! I'm soooo glad you mentioned the Spirit! WHAT is the spirit?

Seriously, Nehor -- how can the Spirit guide a Church when "it" tells Prophets contradictory things and the members contradictory information? This baffles me!

Quite seriously -- befuddled at how this works!! Explain slowly to a heathen....

I don't know how it will work with you. I only know how it works with me. There are times I know it's the Spirit, times I'm not sure, and times I have no idea. Part of the fun of the Gospel is figuring out which is which through experience. Yeah, Prophets have gotten things wrong. They misunderstood which was which. To correct their error for yourself you must reach a spiritual height at which you can discern it clearly. Some numbskulls are unable to discern that they are wrong and go on anyways thinking their every thought is inspired. Some use the justification that the Spirit told them to to back up their own wishes and thoughts or even in a vain attempt to appear spiritual. I'm guessing these are the people Jesus meant who at the last day will talk about all the wonderful things they've done in his name and he will respond that they knew him not.

It has to be earned, not given. Sorry, the Spirit has not given me his robe size. If he does, you'll be the first to know.

[_Scottie]

Just to clarify it stops with the Spirit...period.

Oh! Goody! I'm soooo glad you mentioned the Spirit! WHAT is the spirit?

Seriously, Nehor -- how can the Spirit guide a Church when "it" tells Prophets contradictory things and the members contradictory information? This baffles me!

Quite seriously -- befuddled at how this works!! Explain slowly to a heathen....

I don't know how it will work with you. I only know how it works with me. There are times I know it's the Spirit, times I'm not sure, and times I have no idea. Part of the fun of the Gospel is figuring out which is which through experience. Yeah, Prophets have gotten things wrong. They misunderstood which was which. To correct their error for yourself you must reach a spiritual height at which you can discern it clearly. Some numbskulls are unable to discern that they are wrong and go on anyways thinking their every thought is inspired. Some use the justification that the Spirit told them to to back up their own wishes and thoughts or even in a vain attempt to appear spiritual. I'm guessing these are the people Jesus meant who at the last day will talk about all the wonderful things they've done in his name and he will respond that they knew him not.

It has to be earned, not given. Sorry, the Spirit has not given me his robe size. If he does, you'll be the first to know.

Just wondering then....what makes a prophet special?

I would think they would have a better discernment for listening to the spirit. Or, hey, maybe even speaking with God face to face?

And, what is "fun" about marrying the wrong person because you THOUGHT the spirit told you to, but later found out it was just the "burning in your loins"??

Or quitting a secure job to start your own business that failed in a year because you THOUGHT the spirit told you to do it?

The "fun" of trying to figure it out indeed...

[_The Nehor]

Just wondering then....what makes a prophet special?

I would think they would have a better discernment for listening to the spirit. Or, hey, maybe even speaking with God face to face?

And, what is "fun" about marrying the wrong person because you THOUGHT the spirit told you to, but later found out it was just the "burning in your loins"??

Or quitting a secure job to start your own business that failed in a year because you THOUGHT the spirit told you to do it?

The "fun" of trying to figure it out indeed...

The Prophet is special because he has stewardship to declare things to the whole world. I know some neat stuff that isn't taught in Church. I'm not supposed to talk about it because it's not my job. If God wants it to come out, it's the Prophet's job to say it.

Well, generally you try to figure out the Spirit BEFORE you make major decisions. I find it laughable (being in a Single's Ward) how many people expect the Spirit to teach them about one or two important steps in their life when they haven't tried to use it for little things like Home Teaching or performing their calling. No, somehow THIS is special. Doesn't work that way.

Bob Wiley taught us the value of baby steps. Take heed to his wisdom.

[_Tarski]

Just to clarify it stops with the Spirit...period.

Then its false. Why? Because the spirit is a useless standard unless one can know with certainty that it is the spirit and can never be fooled to think something is the spirit that really isn't. But I have numerous example of people being told things by what they knew to be the spirit but that turned out to be verifiably false. QED