False enough for me

[_antishock8]

The "Spirit". What a perfect mental loophole. Undefined. Unaccountable. Unspecific. Infallible. Of course a Mormon would believe that the "Spirit" is the ultimate arbitrar of Truth. It allows the Mormon himself the opportunity to decide what is and what isn't Truth, and certify it through a self-affirming emotive seal of approval.

As long as that so-called "Truth" is kept to themselves. If a Mormon had "Truth" that Tommy Monson wasn't really a true prophet and acted on that "Truth", they'd be kicked out in a heart beat.

"Truth" works as long as long as it's kosher. When it falls out of favor, a newer, better "Truth" fills the place.

I had a difficult time as member swallowing this. I was given the HOTC and JOD as "gifts" when I was first baptized in the 80s. When I would comment on items from it in Priesthood or what not, I was always looked at strangely. Those doctrines had fallen out of "favor", but no reason was ever given why.

In the end I found the only way to be a True Blue Mormon was to shut out of my mind everything and mindlessly obey. Only preach what was in the current lesson manuals. Only preach what was in the current ensign. I had to in essence either lobotomize myself or get out.

I took the red pill.

Hence why you were a crappy member. You learned to shut up instead of sitting down and figuring the whole Spirit thing out. If you think the standard is flawed and doesn't work (despite the Church surviving this long) then don't let the door hit you on the way out. Somehow it has worked for me....go figure.

A perfect example of shunning. They were the problem. They are no longer part of us. They must be shunned.

[_Tarski]

Just to clarify it stops with the Spirit...period.

Then its false. Why? Because the spirit is a useless standard unless one can know with certainty that it is the spirit and can never be fooled to think something is the spirit that really isn't. But I have numerous example of people being told things by what they knew to be the spirit but that turned out to be verifiably false. QED

They were wrong. Not my problem. One can know with certainty that something is the Spirit. They said it was when it wasn't.

And they would say that you got it wrong and it isn't their problem. What a hilarious piciture; a whole population self proclaimed spiritual adepts each incorrigibly following their own self produced sensations. Each chasing a chimera.
I would like to see Nehor and BY fight it our about who can or can't tell if it's really the spirit.

Absolutely hilarious.

When will these people realize that there is no way out of the fact that all there is are flesh and blood brains in flesh and blood bodies making fallible and often self deceptive judgements about what is or isn't true.
Thank goodness there are people who are willing to submit their ideas to objective tests and rational argument without falling back on some notion of special infallible insight or mysical experience from God that Trump's everything else.

[_Jason Bourne]

Hence why you were a crappy member. You learned to shut up instead of sitting down and figuring the whole Spirit thing out. If you think the standard is flawed and doesn't work (despite the Church surviving this long) then don't let the door hit you on the way out.

This is really grossly unfair. Controversial subjects are generally frowned upon. Leader tell us to stick with the manuals and not to bring in outside commentaries and so on. Members bristle normally when something uncomforatble is brought up. I can just see Infymus saying in Priesthood "Oh hey, read the other day the Brigham said if he caught someone in the act of adultery and ran them through with a spear he would be justified and they would atone for their sin. What is that all about?"

Your diatribe, yes diatribe on the spirit and how you know it and have it figured out is vacuous. This is totally subjective and cannot be empirically demonstrated that you are in tune with what you call the spirit than anyone else is. For Mormons the spirit is really only the spirit when it speaks favorably of LDS things and truth claims. If someone else says the spirit tells them something that contradicts LDS truth claims then that person doesn't really have the spirit or understand the spirit.

Case in point. I have prayed to know if plural marriage was really from God in the LDS Church. Yes I really have. And the answer I get is no, it was a mistake. I believe this is as spiritual of an answer as any I even got confirming other truth claims. So what do we do since this conflicts with others testimony of the spirit on this?

Somehow it has worked for me....go figure.

No you just think it works for you but there is no doubt your spirit directed issues will conflict with other, even other active LDS that think the spirit speaks to them as much as you.

[_Jason Bourne]

Hence why you were a crappy member. You learned to shut up instead of sitting down and figuring the whole Spirit thing out. If you think the standard is flawed and doesn't work (despite the Church surviving this long) then don't let the door hit you on the way out. Somehow it has worked for me....go figure.

Nehor if you haven't got anything to add except personal insults, then STFU. This is how both you and Bourne act and is exactly why I call you lapdogs - and ignore pretty much all of your messages.

You have NOTHING to add. Nothing, and quite frankly I'm getting f*****g tired of it.

I think it is getting time to drop my subscription to MDB. This is the exact reason why I steer anyone who is looking for recovery away from MDB - people like you and Bourne. You relentlessly attack anyone who left your Cult.

I think I've had enough.

Infymus

I think by now, especially after comments on this thread it is grossly an error to link Nehor and me in the same lump. How many times do I have to show you that there are things I criticize as well. Look I could care less what you think of me but I expect honesty and fait treatment. You want to drop the name calling? Stop it yourself.

[_mentalgymnast]

BCSpace indicates that nothing is doctrine unless it is declared so by both the FP and the Qo12.

But,...


Where is the list of doctrines that the FP and the Qo12 have made official doctrine by joint declaration? Where are the declarations? Spread all over in a disorganized way? Nonexistent? I am interested in knowing what they left out.

One big problem is that Mormons like have invented a private and idiosyncratic interpretation of scriptures so as to keep what ever distorted bits of science they feel the need to keep.
They also refuse to be pinned down by anything and we are led in a circle
Were does the doctrinal buck stop?

its the scriptures!
no, its the words of the living prophets
no its the spirit
no its the scriptures

round and round

You would choose to have creedal Mormonism? Isn't it obvious as you look around in the world that information/knowledge comes line upon line, precept on precept...here a little and there a little? There isn't a whole lot that happens without an evolutionary process.

Gosh, it wasn't until 1920 or so that the 1st Presidency finally came out with a united statement on the nature of God and Christ. Ninety years to work things out to the point that we now teach Christ being the Jehovah of the Old Testament. Here we are in 2008 and Blake Ostler is still writing books on the nature of God.

Isn't it also obvious that we live in a world of contradictions and opposition? The world is a messy place...because of people. Why would we think that things would be drastically different in the church?

This dance is there to keep things indefinite so that the church can never be proven false once and for all.

You don't know that for a fact. The "dance" may have rhyme or reason as accompaniment. What may appear at times to be "dancing" around the issues, etc., may have more to do with line upon line methodologies/implimentations, or milk before meat.

But,...


Let's just say that the following facts make the church false enough for me:

1. Prophets and seers of the past have repeatedly made statements to the world and congregation that are contrary to scientific fact.
2. Prophets in the early church have made public statements contrary to what present day prophets say especially with regard to race and gender.
3. Mormon scriptures make statements contrary to scientific fact if read without doing violence to the ordinary meaning of words.
4. Educated Mormons are in direct conflict with each other over what is, or is not, doctrine (its a house of confusion).
(Most Mormon believe things contrary to science and that exactly because they say it is doctrine.)

I'm not seeing any conflict with this list and simply approaching things with a different paradigm/perspective than you seem to be taking. It's the glass half empty or glass half full syndrome.

Regards,
MG

[_Infymus]

For Mormons the spirit is really only the spirit when it speaks favorably of LDS things and truth claims. If someone else says the spirit tells them something that contradicts LDS truth claims then that person doesn't really have the spirit or understand the spirit.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OMG!!!!!!!!!


HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

/falls on the floor

[_Dr. Shades]

This is the exact reason why I steer anyone who is looking for recovery away from MDB . . .

That's just it. MormonDiscussions isn't about recovery at all--that's what RfM is for. This board is only for discussions about Mormonism--nothing more.

[_mentalgymnast]

I was seriously considering posting this to the Mormon Curtain this morning. I think you've absolutely nailed it.

I don't think so.

Regards,
MG

[_Dr. Shades]

But mentalgymnast, I think he has a great point. Let's examine it:

1. The scriptures contain LDS doctrine.
2. If the scriptures contain anything false, then it wasn't translated correctly in that particular spot.
3. The living prophets supersede the scriptures.
4. The living prophets' words will always have a scriptural foundation.
5. Return to Step 1.

So, since nobody knows which of steps 1-4 is the "foundation" of LDS doctrine, the cycle endlessly repeats, with the end result that nobody knows what's true (or even doctrinal) or not and no two Mormons believe exactly the same thing.

[_Mercury]

Hence why you were a crappy member. You learned to shut up instead of sitting down and figuring the whole Spirit thing out. If you think the standard is flawed and doesn't work (despite the Church surviving this long) then don't let the door hit you on the way out. Somehow it has worked for me....go figure.

Nehor if you haven't got anything to add except personal insults, then STFU. This is how both you and Bourne act and is exactly why I call you lapdogs - and ignore pretty much all of your messages.

You have NOTHING to add. Nothing, and quite frankly I'm getting f*****g tired of it.

I think it is getting time to drop my subscription to MDB. This is the exact reason why I steer anyone who is looking for recovery away from MDB - people like you and Bourne. You relentlessly attack anyone who left your Cult.

I think I've had enough.

Infymus

I think by now, especially after comments on this thread it is grossly an error to link Nehor and me in the same lump. How many times do I have to show you that there are things I criticize as well. Look I could care less what you think of me but I expect honesty and fait treatment. You want to drop the name calling? Stop it yourself.

Agreed. Nehor is just a little kid, jasons deep in the mire of the church. Two totally different situations and personalities.

Infymus, I suggest you reexamine your characterization of Jason.