There's something strange about 'the Mormon debater'

[_LifeOnaPlate]

When you're a master debater it's hard to stop, even if the GA's tell you to.

Indeed. I keep churning out posts like a little factory.

Sometimes, the best thing to do is to tie your typing hand to the bed post.

Good idea. Next time I'm tempted to make multiple key strokes of my space bar, I will give this a try.

[_bcspace]

What is the point of debating Mormonism, for believing Mormons?

LDS missionaries are told explicitly not to Bible bash. LDS GA's constantly tell members that conversion "only comes through the sweet spirit of God", not through debate. The Book of Mormon Jesus criticizes religious "disputations". Most Mormons can't help but regard those who have left or rejected Mormonism as either too dumb to understand "the gospel", or too evil to stick with it - making it even more pointless, from the Mormon's perspective, to debate.

Most crucially, to engage in debate is to tacitly concede that (empirically-discernible) facts and logic impose constraints upon what one may justifiably believe; but this is just what Mormonism denies.

Mormon theology might pay lip service to "studying it out in your mind", but any question is decided in the end by "feelings" taken to be divinely-given, and/or simply crediting what "the prophet" said. Hinckley made this point himself in his "Loyalty" GC talk a few years ago.

So what are all these online Mormon "debaters" even doing, really?

Contending for the faith as per the scriptures. In addition, I think there is a big difference between teaching the gospel and not allowing others to control the discussion unchallenged, both of which we are asked to do.

[_Tal Bachman]

Your approach is showing aspects of that "black and white" thinking I noted while listening to your interview segments with Helen Whitney.

---God...Can't you guys ever get real? What the *** is the problem?

Mormonism IS A BLACK AND WHITE FUNDAMENTALISM, Life. And do you know who made it so? A guy named Joseph Smith, when he announced that the religion he was starting was "the only true and living church on the earth", the "only one with the authority", and that all other creeds were "abominations". And that Mormonism is ultimately a black and white fundamentalism was reiterated by Hinckley himself, when he announced from the General Conference pulpit in 2003, "EITHER THE CHURCH IS A FRAUD, OR IT IS NOT".

Guys like you whining and crying that I'M guilty of "black and white thinking" are in frigging OUTER SPACE. The truth is that you don't take Mormonism on the terms it demands. And you don't, I imagine, because you can't. You can't stomach it. It makes you too squeamish. You've got to change it, recast it all in your imagination....in order to believe it, you have to make it into something that it claims NOT TO BE.

Haven't you noticed that you sit in Mormon chapels once a month listening to BLACK AND WHITE FUNDAMENTALIST rhetoric about "knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt!", and sit in GC meetings listening to the same things said by Mormonism's most authoritative voices? Then you hang out on places like MormonDiscussions.com talking about how I'VE gotten Mormonism all wrong because I say it's "either/or". WAKE UP.

Guys like you sound like frigging POTHEADS, Life. THIS THE CHURCH YOU BELONG TO; IT is the party which demands that it be evaluated in terms of True or False, Right or Wrong, Black or White. Even HINCKLEY, who sounded like a pothead himself in a lot of his interviews, at least had the wherewithal to keep Smith's black and white-ism up. OPEN YOUR EYES, LIFE. This is the church you belong to. "It is either a fraud, or it is not". That was the sitting president of the church who said that, in a GENERAL CONFERENCE.

WAKE UP.

[_bcspace]

Everything is black and white without exception (There's the right and the wrong to every question)

Where people have trouble comming to conclusions is simply the result of lack of information and this can often be navigated by breaking the problem down into smaller components which are also black and white.

For example, the question..."Is there an exception to every rule?"

Not enough information to answer with confidence. But we can break it down thusly...

"Is there an exception to this rule?"

[_LifeOnaPlate]

---God...Can't you guys ever get real? What the *** is the problem?

Was that a Freudian prayer?

Mormonism IS A BLACK AND WHITE FUNDAMENTALISM, Life.

I don't doubt that in your experience it was. It seems you have transfered the same mentality to your new worldview.

And do you know who made it so? A guy named Joseph Smith, when he announced that the religion he was starting was "the only true and living church on the earth", the "only one with the authority", and that all other creeds were "abominations". And that Mormonism is ultimately a black and white fundamentalism was reiterated by Hinckley himself, when he announced from the General Conference pulpit in 2003, "EITHER THE CHURCH IS A FRAUD, OR IT IS NOT".

I believe this is one way of looking at it. I also see other statements and scriptures by both Smith and Hinckley that expand and clarify the terms. I believe the Church has both problems and benefits; it isn't free from the social contracts we ourselves forge. But this is a topic for another day, and for another person who doesn't start TALKING IN ALL CAPS and dismisses me by asking why "you guys" can't "get real."

Guys like you whining and crying that I'M guilty of "black and white thinking" are in frigging OUTER SPACE.

I always wanted to be an astronaut.

The truth is that you don't take Mormonism on the terms it demands. And you don't, I imagine, because you can't. You can't stomach it. It makes you too squeamish. You've got to change it, recast it all in your imagination....in order to believe it, you have to make it into something that it claims NOT TO BE.

You're right in one sense. I can't take Mormonism on the terms with which you characterize it. I know there are people in and out of the Church who see it the way you do, as well. That's fine, Tal. I don't fault you for heading for the door considering the way you see things in the Church.

Haven't you noticed that you sit in Mormon chapels once a month listening to BLACK AND WHITE FUNDAMENTALIST rhetoric about "knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt!", and sit in GC meetings listening to the same things said by Mormonism's most authoritative voices? Then you hang out on places like MormonDiscussions.com talking about how I'VE gotten Mormonism all wrong because I say it's "either/or". WAKE UP.

Yeah, I don't always jive with all the testimonies I hear. I'm not surprised, also, that general authorities discuss mostly fundamentals in GC, given a growing global audience, the youth of the Church overall (not even 2 yet! Centuries, that is.)

Guys like you sound like frigging POTHEADS, Life.

That's not very fair to the potheads, now, is it?

THIS THE CHURCH YOU BELONG TO; IT is the party which demands that it be evaluated in terms of True or False, Right or Wrong, Black or White.

I've never denied the possibility of absolutes; I just try to keep in mind all the different shades between. And the deepest blues are black.

Even HINCKLEY, who sounded like a pothead himself in a lot of his interviews, at least had the wherewithal to keep Smith's black and white-ism up.

I thought in the large majority of his interviews he was quite adept and lucid, especially considering his age.

OPEN YOUR EYES, LIFE. This is the church you belong to. "It is either a fraud, or it is not". That was the sitting president of the church who said that, in a GENERAL CONFERENCE.

I believe it is fraud or it's not, as well. I just don't see "fraud or not" as a list of historical or doctrinal points, all of which must directly coincide and line up perfectly in order for a system to carry any validity.

WAKE UP.

Go back to sleep.

[_The Nehor]

... what are all these online Mormon "debaters" even doing, really?

They're playing a game, mostly with themselves. Or to put it another way, they're playing with themselves.

As Nehor says its some kind of "entertainment." This explains right there the lack of serious intellectual engagement. That these things may indeed be quite serious, emotionally and intellectually, for other people is immaterial.

I'm sure it provides a self-aggrandizement fix, too: Lo, I have once again dealt a blow against The Adversary! I think this role playing is pretty obvious from the demonizing and dehumanizing language they direct toward their "opponents." It also provides a persecution fix: Waaaa! The antis are saying mean things about my sacred (fill in the blank). It's Missouri all over again.

It's not about discussion for them, or even debate as a component of learning. They're not here to enlarge the scope of human knowledge and understanding because from their vantage there is no need for such things: all important truths or knowledge have been revealed and they possess it.

(I hope its obvious, but in case it isn't, I'm talking about self-styled apologists and other jacked-up defenders here and not every single self-identified LDS member.)

Oh, I occasionally contribute to serious discussion. However, it's incredibly rare here. I don't come here to roleplay. If I want to beat up the evil peoples I play D&D. More comments on my masturbatory habits too. This is why demonize and dehumanize you people :)

I don't know if I'm a self-styled apologist or jacked-up defender....anyone want to help me out here?

[_The Nehor]

I don't know about everyone else. I'm mostly trying to keep entertained.

---Is that like watching an r-rated movie for entertainment, even when you're not really supposed to? :P

Kinda in the sense that the mention of R-rated movies was mentioned in one talk to a specific group of people I don't belong to years ago and has not since been reiterated. In other parts of the world the rule doesn't exit (even in those that have a comparable standard). I've watched some R-rated movies that I think have enduring cultural value (teaches something about history, has a profound insight into humanity, stars Kate Beckinsale as a vampire in a catsuit, those sorts of things).

[_LifeOnaPlate]

I don't know if I'm a self-styled apologist or jacked-up defender....anyone want to help me out here?

A self-jacked apologist?

[_The Nehor]

I don't know if I'm a self-styled apologist or jacked-up defender....anyone want to help me out here?

A self-jacked apologist?

Okay, that was comic gold.

[_Blixa]

More comments on my masturbatory habits too.

You do make an awfully good straight man. When you set things up so well, who can blame those that go for the rim shot? (Surely you don't see any sexual innuendo there, do you?)