Of course I taught them my moral values. But that wasn't what this thread was about, this thread was about whether or not children needed to be forced to be schooled within a specific religious system. I have no doubt that cinepro would continue to share his own moral values with his son, even if he did not force his son to go to the LDS church. I'm sure you don't doubt it, either - so if you're just talking about moral values in some generic sense, your earlier comment was meaningless in regards to the topic of this thread.
Not really. We are dealing with a 10 year old boy and not an adult. How much freedom should a 10 year old have? Many young people do not want to go to seminary or church. It is quite normal at that age. It is no surprise that seth's daughter does not want to go to seminary. It is a lot of work and she most likely knows her father's disbelief. And cinepro's son probably knows his father's questioning mind. Children are very perceptive in the home.
Suppose a child wants to quit school at 16. Would you support that child's decision or would you try to influence that decision? Most likely seth, cinepro and you would attempt to influence that child's decision because you all value education. But since the church isn't valued, it is okay to give freedom to the child. But for seth's wife and cinepro's wife, the church is valued. Should they also not have the right to influence the child? or even persuade the child to go to church or seminary?
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
And so constructive values are important and it is the responsibility of the parents to mold such values in their children.
Absolutely. And how better to instill those values than through the words of a 19th century womanizer, boozer, and money-digger.
But he was a good father and valued his family regardless of your slant with words.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Not really. We are dealing with a 10 year old boy and not an adult. How much freedom should a 10 year old have? Many young people do not want to go to seminary or church. It is quite normal at that age. It is no surprise that seth's daughter does not want to go to seminary. It is a lot of work and she most likely knows her father's disbelief. And cinepro's son probably knows his father's questioning mind. Children are very perceptive in the home.
Suppose a child wants to quit school at 16. Would you support that child's decision or would you try to influence that decision? Most likely seth, cinepro and you would attempt to influence that child's decision because you all value education. But since the church isn't valued, it is okay to give freedom to the child. But for seth's wife and cinepro's wife, the church is valued. Should they also not have the right to influence the child? or even persuade the child to go to church or seminary?
WTF???
You reply that your comments were "not really" meaningless in the context of this thread, and then you go on about something entirely different?
Or do you not realize you started talking about something different?
The question of whether or not cinepro should force his son to continue to go to church has nothing to do with that child ending up "lost and confused". Those are your comments that are totally meaningless, given the context of this thread.
Of course parents seek to influence children to continue doing things that the parents think will have value in that child's life. That is a different question altogether.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
Not really. We are dealing with a 10 year old boy and not an adult. How much freedom should a 10 year old have? Many young people do not want to go to seminary or church. It is quite normal at that age. It is no surprise that seth's daughter does not want to go to seminary. It is a lot of work and she most likely knows her father's disbelief. And cinepro's son probably knows his father's questioning mind. Children are very perceptive in the home.
Suppose a child wants to quit school at 16. Would you support that child's decision or would you try to influence that decision? Most likely seth, cinepro and you would attempt to influence that child's decision because you all value education. But since the church isn't valued, it is okay to give freedom to the child. But for seth's wife and cinepro's wife, the church is valued. Should they also not have the right to influence the child? or even persuade the child to go to church or seminary?
WTF???
You reply that your comments were "not really" meaningless in the context of this thread, and then you go on about something entirely different?
Or do you not realize you started talking about something different?
The question of whether or not cinepro should force his son to continue to go to church has nothing to do with that child ending up "lost and confused". Those are your comments that are totally meaningless, given the context of this thread.
Of course parents seek to influence children to continue doing things that the parents think will have value in that child's life. That is a different question altogether.
I gave you a different example. Cinepro posted a problem. People encouraged him not to force his child to go to church. Then, sethbag chimed in about his own daughter. He also encouraged cinepro not to force his son to go to church by giving his own example. I also felt that sethbag wanted to give his daughter the freedom to make her own choice.
I was under the impression that he did not want to instill churchvalues onto his daughter but rather give her freedom to choose mainly because he does not believe in the church but his wife does.
If you read my comments to sethbag maybe you will get a better understanding where I am coming from. I have no idea what values sethbag's daughter is learning. But I do know that in seminary the teenagers do learn good constructive values. I know because my own daughters went through it.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Not really. We are dealing with a 10 year old boy and not an adult. How much freedom should a 10 year old have? Many young people do not want to go to seminary or church. It is quite normal at that age. It is no surprise that seth's daughter does not want to go to seminary. It is a lot of work and she most likely knows her father's disbelief. And cinepro's son probably knows his father's questioning mind. Children are very perceptive in the home.
Suppose a child wants to quit school at 16. Would you support that child's decision or would you try to influence that decision? Most likely seth, cinepro and you would attempt to influence that child's decision because you all value education. But since the church isn't valued, it is okay to give freedom to the child. But for seth's wife and cinepro's wife, the church is valued. Should they also not have the right to influence the child? or even persuade the child to go to church or seminary?
WTF???
The question of whether or not cinepro should force his son to continue to go to church has nothing to do with that child ending up "lost and confused". Those are your comments that are totally meaningless, given the context of this thread.
Of course parents seek to influence children to continue doing things that the parents think will have value in that child's life. That is a different question altogether.
I believe that in both cases, the wives are TBM and for them it does make a difference. To have parents struggling over this issue can be confusing to a child with unknown outcomes.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
I believe that in both cases, the wives are TBM and for them it does make a difference. To have parents struggling over this issue can be confusing to a child with unknown outcomes.
I'm going to try to clear the smoke a bit here. Just answer this direct question:
If cinepro should decide to not force his son to go to church, does that mean that he is no longer teaching his son moral values, and that son will end up lost and confused?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
I was once in the position of Cinepro's son. My TBM mother insisted, and I mean insisted that I attend church, early morning seminary, etc. At the time, I had a very difficult time accepting the basic Joseph Smith story, I found church boring, etc. My father was a never-Mo, and he had a violent temper, and my mother used this to her advantage. In essence, then, I was given the choice of either quietly attending church, or facing off with my old man. I'm sure you can guess what the best choice was.
In any case, I reckon I don't have any real advice, other than to say, I was "forced" to attend church, and look how I wound up!
One of the great things to teach children is critical thinking. For example: Bible scholars know that Isaiah 40 and on was not written until about 200 years after Isaiah's death: evidence - mentioning Cyrus (I think Isaiah 45). Cyrus was not born when Lehi left Jeureusalem so how did Isaiah 48 get into the plates when it was not written yet - it shows that Joseph Smith copied Isaiah from the Bible. This is a great lesson to teach ten year olds and they can learn critical thinking skills from it. To teach that Joseph Smith translated the plates keeps children in a fantasy world that hurts them in the long run.
Sethbag wrote:You gotta remember, Gazelam learned in church that obedience was the first law of Heaven.
Bah, that's such utter dog crap it's sickening. And forcing one's kids into the belief system is sickening as well.
This is Dawkinism to be sure. The problem is: parents always force their children into a belief system through a socialization process. What five year old can choose his or her belief system? When should a child have a belief system? Who teaches a child right from wrong? From what I have seen in my neck of the woods, those children raised without a constructive belief system usually end up lost and confused.
Hey, I'm 39 and you're only 15, so here's what you're going to believe, and you're gonna like it! Seriously, is this what you support and believe in? That parents should take advantage of their position of power and the malleability of children's minds to essentially bully their own children into believing some particular set of religious mythology? Well I don't agree, and it's not because Dawkins doesn't agree either. That doesn't mean I can't teach my daughter how to be a good person, and have reasonable values, and good jugment, and assertive personality, and be kind, generous, courteous, and respectful. But I will not attempt to use my position of power to force my daughter into the belief in religious fairy tales. Sorry if that offends you.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen