False enough for me

[_beastie]

Interestingly, this message came through loud and clear from Elder Joseph Wirthlin this morning in the conference session. Some more examples?

Are you serious? Come on! This message was anything BUT "loud and clear" throughout the history of the LDS church!!! In fact, the LDS church LAGGED BEHIND the rest of the world in regards to this concept.

MG, you are really frustrating me right now. It seems to me almost as if you're being deliberately obtuse. I have zero doubt you are very familiar with the history of the LDS church in terms of its teachings in regards to the African American race.

[_mentalgymnast]

Hey MG,

The truth claim that one must be baptized into the kingdom of God in order to return to his presence is rather significant, wouldn't you say? The truth claim that in order to be potentially exalted to a condition of godlike capabilities and characteristics one must receive and make covenants in the temple is rather significant, wouldn't you say?

The church makes the claim of having the ONLY authoritative baptism (and the keys necessary for that to be so) that will act as an entryway/conduit into the kingdom of God.

That IS rather significant.

How about the claim that one must receive Moksha (not our favorite penguin), to be released from the cycle of rebirth?

How about the truth claim that one must be born again in the true Christian tradition or Catholicism to live in Heaven with God?

How about the truth claim that one returns to their animal spirit upon death?

How about the truth claim that a man must have a harem/be sealed to many women to become a God?

How about the truth claim that you have lived numerous lives and are traveling through existence with a soul group?

How about the truth claim that there is no separation between humankind/nature and God?

How about the truth claim of the Akashic records that anyone can access and know all truth past and present?

How about the truth claim that God is going to return in a spaceship and take the believers to another realm as earth is destroyed?

How about the truth claim that aliens are visiting the earth and giving us messages in the way of crop circles to enlighten us so we won't be destroyed in 2012?

How about the truth claim that one actually is God as believed by many Eastern religions?

I could go on and on and on... :-)

I don't know of any religions/faith traditions that do not make fabulous claims... they differ in their specifics but I do not know of one being more unique, unusual, crazy, odd, fantastical than any other depending on one's culture, society, and familial orientation.

You seem to think the LDS church has more wonderful claims, (or has more to offer, or has more rewards, or something), than other religions of the world, I do not think this is so by any means. In fact I would say much less so but that is a personal opinion. :-)

~dancer~

Ohhh by the way MG, you know you are one of my favorite posters right? And, I'm not all that good! (smile)

These all fail in respect to the truth claim that the LDS church makes in regards to the sealing powers of heaven. What is sealed on earth is sealed in heaven through the power of the priesthood. I am failing to see where any other religious group claims authority from God to seal in heaven what is sealed on earth.

That is significant.

Of course, it would be expected that there would be elements of truth in the truth claims of most religious groups/organizations. But this doesn't dictate that they are the "one and only" true church of God on the earth. The LDS church teaches that it is literally the Kingdom of God on Earth and has his divine authority to teach a fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and provide authoritative forgiveness for sins through the power a priesthood which had been lost from the earth through apostasy.

Again, that's pretty significant.

Did you listen to Elder Eyring's talk? He really "put it out there" as to the important difference between other belief systems and the CofJCofLDS.

Regards,
MG

[_beastie]

Hey, I'm failing to see where other religions teach that they have the tools and skills to erase the harmful effects of disruptive Thetans, either.

[_beastie]

by the way,

If human beings being able to become GODS one day is THE most important part of the LDS church, that is what Mormon missionaries and commercials ought to be putting out there. Is it?

[_bcspace]

LOL! I would say touché but BCSpace has a handy talent of redefining words at will to suite the purpose. There are no scriptures that can't be read to say something slighly different that the manifest meaning- just enough to dodge the scientific bullet. But at the expense of linguistic absurdity.

Of course Tarski can't point to a single example of me doing this which is why his post contained none.

[_mentalgymnast]

Interestingly, this message came through loud and clear from Elder Joseph Wirthlin this morning in the conference session. Some more examples?

Are you serious? Come on! This message was anything BUT "loud and clear" throughout the history of the LDS church!!! In fact, the LDS church LAGGED BEHIND the rest of the world in regards to this concept.

MG, you are really frustrating me right now. It seems to me almost as if you're being deliberately obtuse. I have zero doubt you are very familiar with the history of the LDS church in terms of its teachings in regards to the African American race.

Yes, and I'm also acutely aware of where the church is at today. Our ward just sent out an missionary to Zimbabwe. The church is heavily invested in reaching out to the world in all its diversity. Elder Wirthlin spoke of this in a very clear manner.

Sorry I'm frustrating you, but it's to be expected. We're not on the same page.<g>

You're living in the past. I'm in the present.

Regards,
MG

[_beastie]

Yes, and I'm also acutely aware of where the church is at today. Our ward just sent out an missionary to Zimbabwe. The church is heavily invested in reaching out to the world in all its diversity. Elder Wirthlin spoke of this in a very clear manner.

Sorry I'm frustrating you, but it's to be expected. We're not on the same page!

You're living in the past. I'm in the present.

ARGH!!

If the LDS church is the "one true church" then its PAST is crucial. You can't just pretend it didn't happen. You can't just close your eyes, click your heels, and pretend that the fact that "prophets and apostles" supposedly speaking FOR GOD couldn't get this straight, nor could they get many other things straight, is irrelevant. It took the larger, host culture to set the LDS church straight, for cripe's sake.

So past teachings of the prophets - IF GOD SPEAKS CLEARLY TO MANKIND - is relevant. It is just "the past". It's part of the evidence - or lack thereof - of God's divine, CLEAR guidance.

Given the model I offered, the LDS church fails miserably. You asked me to provide what it would look like - I did. The LDS church fails. Thanks for playing.

[_mentalgymnast]

by the way,

If human beings being able to become GODS one day is THE most important part of the LDS church, that is what Mormon missionaries and commercials ought to be putting out there. Is it?

That we can through righteous living become more like the Savior (become perfected in Him) and our Father in Heaven is taught by the missionaries. Thus, the call to repentance and baptism into the church. Thus, the emphasis placed on families by the missionaries and in church sponsered television commercials/ads.

Regards,
MG

[_beastie]

That we can through righteous living become more like the Savior (become perfected in Him) and our Father in Heaven is taught by the missionaries. Thus, the call to repentance and baptism into the church. Thus, the emphasis placed on families by the missionaries and in church sponsered television commercials/ads.

But that's not what makes the church so very different, according to you.

[_bcspace]

Then I would say you have never attented a teacher preparation class or read the CHI book 2, or even attended Church in over 30 years. I don't believe you anyway as you and I have been posting on the same boards for years.

I truly do not ever recall hearing such a thing. Not as a believer or since discovering the apologetic community.

I feel quite certain that there were many discussions where apologists clearly stated manuals were NOT doctrine, I didn't even think this was up for debate. I have never read the CHI book 2, you are correct on this point.

Yes, as I agreed with Tal(?) in another thread(?), there are apologists who have stated that. However, I think most of them are comming around. Unfortunately there are some who won't accept what the Church says because of the way they've explained away doctrine previously or they have an agenda that can't stand in the light of a systematic theology (which is what the Church has). But it is not the apologist who has the ultimate word on this, it's the Church itself.

Any apologist who says the manuals are not doctrine doesn't know what they are talking about. If you can't accept the Church's own statements about this, just ask yourself "Would the Church publish manuals that are not doctrinal?" and "Where does the Church say anything about optional doctrine?"

Those are concepts promulagated by those who do not believe or those who are embarrassed by doctrine or by those who don't know how to defend it.

by the way, I still don't believe you've been ignorant of this issue. Sorry.

Then refer to the Church's own official statements. An apologist is only as good as he knows and understands the Church's clearly stated positions.

What is the official statement on where official church doctrine can be found? Is there one? If so I would be most appreciate if you could share it with us.

I link to it in my siggy.