Ahhh crap...now my son doesn't want to go to Church!

[_Sethbag]

I'm fully committed to the idea that my daughter will be utterly and completely free to choose whether she will spend the rest of her life as a Mormon, and what she'll believe, and why.

What does this mean? What exactly are you committed to? I am sure that if you believed your daughter was heading in the wrong direction you would put your foot down and begin to influence her behavior or would you just allow her to be free to do what she wants to do?

I'm committed to my daughter being a good, kind, courteous, respectful person, and to have a very strong and useful faculty of rational and critical thinking. I want her to be very good at thinking for herself and making her own, informed choices about what she'll believe. Obviously I'm going to influence her in this direction, and not let her run off and start drinking, smoking, screwing around, etc. This isn't the same as telling her "here's what you will believe, and I'm going to cuff you upside the head and tell you what church meetings you'll go to, and you'll like it!"

Also, you are already influencing her belief patterns through your disbelief. I do believe she knows just how you feel about the LDS church. Such much for freedom to choose without parental intent.

She knows I don't believe, and she knows my wife believes. She can see both sides, and she knows both sides are allowed, which is critical, because she knows that whether, or what, she eventually believes will be up to her, and not because we forced it on her.

[_asbestosman]

But I will not attempt to use my position of power to force my daughter into the belief in religious fairy tales. Sorry if that offends you.

So then to be clear, is the objection based on forced indoctrination instead of forced attendance? Forcing children to attend things they don't like is a non-issue to me. We do it all the time whether we force them to come on errands, visit relatives, or whatever. At least, that's what my parents did to me and I do not blame them for it despite the fact that none of those things had any religious value in them.

Also, which beliefs is it fine to indoctrinate children about? Abortion? Guns? Diet (meat or not)? Polygamy?

Finally, is it possible to at least give a kid the choice not to attend church without rewarding it by making it more exciting? Maybe allow the kid to remain at home, but make the kid read age-appropriate books on philosphy, religion, or other similar topics? If indoctrination is bad, then perhaps one can come up with an alternative that respects the kids choice without having the kid make the decision based on the fun factor. I would have loved to stay home and play Nintendo on Sunday, but that doesn't mean I had decided that God didn't exist or the church wasn't true either.

[_Moniker]

Also, which beliefs is it fine to indoctrinate children about? Abortion? Guns? Diet (meat or not)? Polygamy?

It's up to the parents, isn't it? Do you want a fundamentalist back woods redneck snake handler indoctrinating the children you might have one day? You choose, right?

If indoctrination is bad, then perhaps one can come up with an alternative that respects the kids choice without having the kid make the decision based on the fun factor.

Indoctrination isn't bad. We're all indoctrinated. Parents, usually, are the ones that choose what children are indoctrinated with. You force your child to go to Church then you most likely want your child to absorb those beliefs. You don't want your child to have those beliefs then you keep them the hell away.

I don't understand why anyone would indoctrinate their child with beliefs that they feel strongly against. I don't understand the pressure some feel with the Church... I can't comprehend how I would ever have my child indoctrinated with something that I felt was wrong. It'd be like me sending my daughters to a neo-nazi summer camp.

[_asbestosman]

I don't understand why anyone would indoctrinate their child with beliefs that they feel strongly against.

I don't think Cinepro feels strongly against LDS beliefs.

[_Moniker]

I don't understand why anyone would indoctrinate their child with beliefs that they feel strongly against.

I don't think Cinepro feels strongly against LDS beliefs.

Yet, Sethbag does and you were replying to him and asking him questions. I was following along that path... I'm not sure what cinepro thinks about the Church -- I'm fairly certain sethbag isn't too fond of it. ;)

[_asbestosman]

Yet, Sethbag does and you were replying to him and asking him questions. I was following along that path

Ah, well in that case going back to your previous post:

It's up to the parents, isn't it? Do you want a fundamentalist back woods redneck snake handler indoctrinating the children you might have one day? You choose, right?

Sethbag would agree with Dawkins that indoctrinating children about religion is inherently problematic:

That parents should take advantage of their position of power and the malleability of children's minds to essentially bully their own children into believing some particular set of religious mythology? Well I don't agree, and it's not because Dawkins doesn't agree either.

[_Moniker]

Yet, Sethbag does and you were replying to him and asking him questions. I was following along that path

Ah, well in that case going back to your previous post:

It's up to the parents, isn't it? Do you want a fundamentalist back woods redneck snake handler indoctrinating the children you might have one day? You choose, right?

Sethbag would agree with Dawkins that indoctrinating children about religion is inherently problematic:

That parents should take advantage of their position of power and the malleability of children's minds to essentially bully their own children into believing some particular set of religious mythology? Well I don't agree, and it's not because Dawkins doesn't agree either.

Are you trying to make a point? I'm not getting it.... :)

[_asbestosman]

Are you trying to make a point? I'm not getting it.... :)

I don't know that it was much of a point. I was just saying that I'm not sure that Sethbag would agree with you that it should be up to parents to decide how to indoctrinate children. I'd like to hear his remarks. I would like to hear your remarks about Dawkins (or at least Sethbag) on the dangers of indoctrinating children just because we can. I'm not looknig for a fight or even a big debate. I just want to give you guys a bit of a chance to clarify or something.

[_why me]

So then to be clear, is the objection based on forced indoctrination instead of forced attendance? Forcing children to attend things they don't like is a non-issue to me. We do it all the time whether we force them to come on errands, visit relatives, or whatever. At least, that's what my parents did to me and I do not blame them for it despite the fact that none of those things had any religious value in them.

Also, which beliefs is it fine to indoctrinate children about? Abortion? Guns? Diet (meat or not)? Polygamy?

Finally, is it possible to at least give a kid the choice not to attend church without rewarding it by making it more exciting? Maybe allow the kid to remain at home, but make the kid read age-appropriate books on philosphy, religion, or other similar topics? If indoctrination is bad, then perhaps one can come up with an alternative that respects the kids choice without having the kid make the decision based on the fun factor. I would have loved to stay home and play Nintendo on Sunday, but that doesn't mean I had decided that God didn't exist or the church wasn't true either.

My point exactly. Seth does not like the church and so, daughter has a choice but wife says no. But seth probably likes education and if daughter wants to opt out at 16, I am sure that he will be the enforcer. But I could be wrong. As I said, at 11 I stopped attending mass not because I believed in no god, but because I did not want to wear fancy clothes and get up at 7 in the morning.

[_why me]

In essence, then, I was given the choice of either quietly attending church, or facing off with my old man. I'm sure you can guess what the best choice was.

In any case, I reckon I don't have any real advice, other than to say, I was "forced" to attend church, and look how I wound up!

So you got whacked a few times and that explains your behavior now??? Okay I get it. :=)