Ahhh crap...now my son doesn't want to go to Church!

[_asbestosman]

My point exactly. Seth does not like the church and so, daughter has a choice but wife says no. But seth probably likes education and if daughter wants to opt out at 16, I am sure that he will be the enforcer.

That wasn't really my point although I did wonder just which things it's fine to indoctrinate children about. I don't really think Sethbag wants to enforce all his values on his daughter.

As I said, at 11 I stopped attending mass not because I believed in no god, but because I did not want to wear fancy clothes and get up at 7 in the morning.

That was more along the lines of my point. Kids aren't always very mature when it comes to how they make decisions. Furthermore sometimes I think it's fine to force kids to attend things they don't want to (shopping trips or errands or whatever). If indoctrination is the thing to be feared, can something else be done to let the kid opt out of indoctrination without making the alternative attractive for immature reasons (more play time)?

[_Moniker]

Are you trying to make a point? I'm not getting it.... :)

I don't know that it was much of a point. I was just saying that I'm not sure that Sethbag would agree with you that it should be up to parents to decide how to indoctrinate children. I'd like to hear his remarks. I would like to hear your remarks about Dawkins (or at least Sethbag) on the dangers of indoctrinating children just because we can. I'm not looknig for a fight or even a big debate. I just want to give you guys a bit of a chance to clarify or something.

Well, I don't want to speak for sethbag -- yet, he mentioned that he left it up to his daughter. His issue apparently was forcing a child to believe something that he does not believe.

I don't like to talk about Dawkins too much... he's not my favorite -- Have you watched the Dennett interview that Tarski posted?

Here's my views on religious indoctrination: It is up to the parents, essentially, yet, as a society, and as individuals, we can ask questions of certain religious beliefs and whether they are harmful or helpful to society and individuals. Is there a conflict between some religious beliefs and science? Yah, there is. I think if we could move more people away from taking things purely on faith and steer them more to reason we would be better as a world and society. I don't think religious indoctrination equates to a dangerous person or to a dangerous world necessarily. I view fundamentalism and fanaticism as where most ills of the world originate.

[_why me]

That wasn't really my point although I did wonder just which things it's fine to indoctrinate children about. I don't really think Sethbag wants to enforce all his values on his daughter.

That was more along the lines of my point. Kids aren't always very mature when it comes to how they make decisions. Furthermore sometimes I think it's fine to force kids to attend things they don't want to (shopping trips or errands or whatever). If indoctrination is the thing to be feared, can something else be done to let the kid opt out of indoctrination without making the alternative attractive for immature reasons (more play time)?

I suppose that my point was that seth was putting his value structure into his daughter by giving her the freedom not to attend. But TBM wife would like her to attend because she values the seminary value structure. If the table was turned, seth may have a different understanding. That was my point.

[_Moniker]

So then to be clear, is the objection based on forced indoctrination instead of forced attendance? Forcing children to attend things they don't like is a non-issue to me. We do it all the time whether we force them to come on errands, visit relatives, or whatever. At least, that's what my parents did to me and I do not blame them for it despite the fact that none of those things had any religious value in them.

Also, which beliefs is it fine to indoctrinate children about? Abortion? Guns? Diet (meat or not)? Polygamy?

Finally, is it possible to at least give a kid the choice not to attend church without rewarding it by making it more exciting? Maybe allow the kid to remain at home, but make the kid read age-appropriate books on philosphy, religion, or other similar topics? If indoctrination is bad, then perhaps one can come up with an alternative that respects the kids choice without having the kid make the decision based on the fun factor. I would have loved to stay home and play Nintendo on Sunday, but that doesn't mean I had decided that God didn't exist or the church wasn't true either.

My point exactly. Seth does not like the church and so, daughter has a choice but wife says no. But seth probably likes education and if daughter wants to opt out at 16, I am sure that he will be the enforcer. But I could be wrong. As I said, at 11 I stopped attending mass not because I believed in no god, but because I did not want to wear fancy clothes and get up at 7 in the morning.

Sethbag would most likely force his daughter to continue her education because he thinks it is important. Again, why is this so hard to understand? We choose what we indoctrinate our kids with. Why would anyone be expected to force their child to be indoctrinated with something the PARENT does not agree with?

I can't imagine anyone would.

Whyme, would you force your kids to militant atheist camp?

[_why me]

Sethbag would most likely force his daughter to continue her education because he thinks it is important. Again, why is this so hard to understand? We choose what we indoctrinate our kids with. Why would anyone be expected to force their child to be indoctrinated with something the PARENT does not agree with?

I can't imagine anyone would.

Whyme, would you force your kids to militant atheist camp?

No. Because I do not agree with such a camp. The problem is with the spouse. If the spouse does, then a problem comes. Whose value structure takes priority for the child?

[_Moniker]

That was more along the lines of my point. Kids aren't always very mature when it comes to how they make decisions. Furthermore sometimes I think it's fine to force kids to attend things they don't want to (shopping trips or errands or whatever). If indoctrination is the thing to be feared, can something else be done to let the kid opt out of indoctrination without making the alternative attractive for immature reasons (more play time)?

You're muddying the waters. We force our kids to do certain things when they derive value from it. We force our kids to do certain things that we WANT them to do and want them to appreciate. We make them go see their grandparents 'cause we want to foster a relationship between them. We FORCE them to clean up their room 'cause we want them to learn responsibility. We FORCE kids to get an education 'cause we want them to be able to pursue their goals in life with the prerequisite skills.

We don't usually force our children to do things that we disagree with.

[_Moniker]

Sethbag would most likely force his daughter to continue her education because he thinks it is important. Again, why is this so hard to understand? We choose what we indoctrinate our kids with. Why would anyone be expected to force their child to be indoctrinated with something the PARENT does not agree with?

I can't imagine anyone would.

Whyme, would you force your kids to militant atheist camp?

No. Because I do not agree with such a camp. The problem is with the spouse. If the spouse does, then a problem comes. Whose value structure takes priority for the child?

It would depend on the couple... and I imagine they would let the child choose. Which is what sethbag is doing. Seems fairly simple, to me.....

[_antishock8]

Ok, I have really crazy suggestion... Ready?

Put your son ahead of the Mormon church and do other things with him on Sundays. You'll both be better for it.

[_cinepro]

I think the kid should just stay home if he wants to. I think my daughter was babysitting at 10ish or so, so why not?

I don't really like the euphemism "my doubts". You either believe it's true, or you don't. I've always been under the impression that Cinepro doesn't. I guess I'm wrong. However, if Cinepro didn't actually believe that the church was true, then why the heck would he want to force his son to act like a TBM, and presumably become one?

I think what's happened is that Cinepro doesn't really believe it anymore, and the son has picked up on that and knows it's OK not to believe it, and he's just not going to put up with the BS. Good for him.

The problem is that I don't accept the dichotomy that demands that my doubts force me to reject the Church entirely. While I have been able to move to a mindset that doesn't look at the Book of Mormon as historical, or Joseph Smith as a supernaturally gifted Prophet (but instead perhaps just an inspired prophet?), I'm not going to reject the Church entirely. For reasons I might not be able to explain, I actually enjoy going to Church on Sundays; I don't know what I get out of it exactly, but at the very least, it is sometimes the one thing we do together as an entire family in our busy week. Ironically, my wife complains about the ward way more than I do (to the point that I just have to ask her to stop after a while, so who knows where that is headed...?)

And, as any parent would, I want my kids to have at least as good a childhood as I did. And I really enjoyed growing up in the Church. I have read the experiences of people who felt like the Church was damaging to them, but I think the Church can be a very positive influence.

Ultimately, I just don't want to stay home from Church yet. I would be more bored at home. We have our adventures hiking and stuff on Saturdays (and even though I really don't "believe" in the idea of God caring me sitting around on Sunday afternoons, I've learned to enjoy taking it easy for one day a week.) So for now, I'm still going to Church. We can't leave him home alone for 3 hours every week; we live too far from the chapel and he's had a few instances of bad independent judgment that make that impossible.

[_karl61]

from experience let me tell you - you are not awake at 6:00 am to care about any system or values. The only thing you are thinking about is how tired you are and how fast you have to get ready for school when you get home.