Ahhh crap...now my son doesn't want to go to Church!

[_asbestosman]

~edited 'cause you're going to keep running with this, aren't ya?~

Well, actually I had hoped to return to being abnormal.

I wasn't trying to tie in the KKK with Cinepro's views on the Church. I wasn't equating the KKK with the Church -- I was merely pointing out that as parents we all choose what we want our kids to be indoctrinated with. It seems as though some just think Cinepro should force his son -- well, ONLY if Cinepro feels it would benefit his son. He apparently believes the Church will benefit his son, in some way. If he didn't he should attempt to discuss it with his wife and reach a mutual understanding. I hope that's clearer.

Works for me.

[_Moniker]

Here is a similar, if not far worse "dilemma" to Cinepro's; my best friend has a 10-year-old son who recently informed him that he doesn't like to eat vegetables. As it turns out, my best friend doesn't like to eat vegetable either, but he faithfully eats them whenever his wife serves them (which is daily). Ohhh what are the parents to do? ;-)

Should they post their "dilemma" on a board predominated by vegetable critics and former vegetable eaters whose "moralizing" is somewhat akin to "let him eat cake"?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't see this as a very good analogy. This is what asbestosman was doing earlier -- talking about things we force our kids to do that they don't want to do.

Eating their vegetables is something that we want them to do (even if some of us may not like salads -- I love 'em!) 'cause we want them to be healthy. Something that we think they do NOT derive value from we steer them away from.

When it comes to beliefs I can choose what my kids are exposed to. Will my kids derive value from hanging out with KKK members (it was born a county over)? I don't think so! Will my kids derive value from believing in the literal translation of the Bible? I do not think so! Cinepro mentioned chastity as important to him -- he wants his son to value that. Well, I am of the mind that I hope my kids have no indoctrinated guilt and shame about sexuality.

So, why force a kid to do something that the parent believes they derive no value from? You don't!

I think you are errantly presupposing "no value" in the minds of either or both parents. I presuppose otherwise, and as such, the analogy works. To each their own. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I certainly wasn't presupposing anything of the sort. I took your analogy and showed how it was silly. I mentioned what cinepro valued... how could I presuppose he doesn't value something when I mentioned what he did value in the Church? Get back to me with that, would you?

Whether you correctly surmised your presupposition or not (you did presuppose "no value"--in fact you explicitely stated as much), were cinepro the only parent involved, and were the things you mentioned to have been an exhaustive list of values to cinepro in the case in question, then you may have a point (not to be confused with you imagining having shown my analogy was "silly"). However, if you look carefully at what cinepro has said, you will note the clear inference to another parent (his wife), and one may reasonably induce that she sees value in Church attendance (for herself as well as for cinpro and their children). And, also one may reasonably induce from cinepro's actions (I.e. continued attendnce at Church), that he see value in the attending Church, if nothing other than it makes his wife happy. So, in both respects, you don't have a point--at least not one that is pertinent or rational. Sorry. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I did NO such thing as presuppose "no value"! I mentioned that cinepro "mentioned chastity as important to him -- he wants his son to value that." I then said that my values were different! So, again, pointing out that PARENTS choose the values they want instilled in their children. It's not as simple as forcing a kid to do something they do or don't want to do. We force our kids to do things we want them to value. We can disagree on these matters and decide NOT to force our kids to do certain things!

Try reading it again, a few times and show me how I repeatedly mentioning it is UP TO THE PARENTS and then stating SPECIFICALLY what cinepro values makes me presuppose "no value" in the Church.

[_skippy the dead]

I just keep replying to people that say we force our kids to do things that they don't want to do. Of course we do!!!!

But some here keep talking about respecting the child's desires about church attendance, or rather about respecting the child's own religious decisions. Should it even have been a factor? Should kids be allowed to make religious decisions (hold on here while I end up shooting myself in the foot when someone brings up baptism at 8 years old).

While you may not be able to make a kid believe certain things, I have no problem having that kid attend church with the family, if that's what the parents have decided is a suitable family activity. In fact, in my earlier reply to the post, I noted that perhaps Cinepro could emphasize the non-doctrinal aspects, which it seems he's interested in doing (as he noted in a later post):

If you include basic things like "honesty", "chastity" and "charity" in the "everything", then I would say "everything". In other words, I don't want him throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

If the "everything" is just beliefs about God and scripture, independent of ethics and and morality, then I would chose "nothing".

Either way, I have no problem with a parent requiring church attendance with the family. That doesn't mean that the kids can't make his own "religious decisions" about what he chooses to believe. It just means that he has a certain place to be every Sunday. And he can take from those meetings what's relevant to him.

[_wenglund]

They are missing the point that as parents we only force our kids to do things that we feel they derive value from. Hence why I point out the absurdity of the analogy of eating veggies with indoctrinating a kid with a belief system.

By way of clarification, let me state things a little more simply and syllogistically:

If parents think eating vegetables is of value, and as such, they feel obliged to force their disinclined children to eat vegetables.

And, if one or more of a given set set of parents think church attendance (or indoctrination in a belief system) is of value (indirect or otherwise), and thus feel obliged to force their disinclined children to attend.

Then, principally, the forced eating of valued vegetables is analogous to the forced valued church attendance.

For the two notions to NOT be analogous in this principle way, then either parents in general would have to see no value in their children eating vegetables, or both the parents in the case in question (cinepro and his wife) would have to see no value in church attendance. Good luck attempting to establish either.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_marg]

Sorry haven't read throught the entire thread so don't know if it has been suggested. But you could tell your 10 year old, that there are many different churches in the world, each with differing beliefs. And say there are also many people in the world who have no beliefs in church, in religion. That as a family you happen to have chosen this one for ..and give him the reasons. And reassure him that when he's older..(suggest an age to him), you will allow him to decide. But in the meantime, he's too young to be left alone at home, and as a favor to you and his mom, just as you do things for him, you'd need him to go with the family to church. The important thing, in my opinion, is to make sure he understands he's not alone in disliking going, not even alone in disbelief and that the reason for him having go has nothing to do with liking or believing any of it. Sometimes people have to do things they don't like or don't believe for harmony with others.

[_Alter Idem]

Hi Cinepro, As an active, believing LDS woman, I can understand completely why this is a concern for both you and your wife. I really admire you for how you are supporting your wife's desire to raise your children in the church. You encourage harmony in the home by having family scripture study and family prayer and you attend with her. These are good things that can help your children develop moral values and help them to grow to be good and successful members of society.

That alone is a good reason to encourage church attendance, though I'm sure your wife wants more than that for her children. She wants them to develop testimonies; however, that is something that you as parents do not control. Your son may never develop a testimony; that will be up to him. But for now, as a 10 year old, he should be able to understand there are other reasons for participating in religious activities. You can explain to him that attending church, reading scriptures and praying are family activities that are important for family unity and that as a member of the family, he should participate.

You can use yourself as an example; You can explain to him that you also have doubts, yet you participate because you love your wife and this is important to her. A little guilt can be useful:) Let him know that it is very important to his mother that he participate with the family in the faith that you and your wife have chosen to raise your family in. Point out to him that there are some things we do for eachother because we love and support eachother and three hours on Sunday and a little time during the week is not too much to ask to help his mother feel that she is being a good parent and training her child. You can even point out D&C 68:25-28--that as LDS Parents, you believe you have a responsibility to teach and train him. When he is an adult, he can choose to leave the church, but as a child, he should allow his parents to fulfill the duties you feel are part of your responsibility in raising your family.

When he turns 12, I would not push him to receive the Priesthood, unless he has a desire to receive it and I would not push him to attend early morning Seminary later, if he doesn't want to. Of course, by that age, he might want to attend for social reasons. As long as he is willing to attend church with his family and will participate in family scripture and prayer, that's probably enough to ask of him, if he has no belief.

Anyway, I think the best thing your wife can do is pray for him and also pray for understanding of his particular situation and needs--hopefully the spirit will guide her to know how to help him and also grant her peace and comfort regarding this situation, so that you all can still enjoy a close and loving family relationship regardless of the direction he chooses to go when he is an adult.

[_antishock8]

Hi Cinepro, As an active, believing LDS woman, I can understand completely why this is a concern for both you and your wife. I really admire you for how you are supporting your wife's desire to raise your children in the church. You encourage harmony in the home by having family scripture study and family prayer and you attend with her. These are good things that can help your children develop moral values and help them to grow to be good and successful members of society.

That alone is a good reason to encourage church attendance, though I'm sure your wife wants more than that for her children. She wants them to develop testimonies; however, that is something that you as parents do not control. Your son may never develop a testimony; that will be up to him. But for now, as a 10 year old, he should be able to understand there are other reasons for participating in religious activities. You can explain to him that attending church, reading scriptures and praying are family activities that are important for family unity and that as a member of the family, he should participate.

You can use yourself as an example; You can explain to him that you also have doubts, yet you participate because you love your wife and this is important to her. A little guilt can be useful:) Let him know that it is very important to his mother that he participate with the family in the faith that you and your wife have chosen to raise your family in. Point out to him that there are some things we do for eachother because we love and support eachother and three hours on Sunday and a little time during the week is not too much to ask to help his mother feel that she is being a good parent and training her child. You can even point out D&C 68:25-28--that as LDS Parents, you believe you have a responsibility to teach and train him. When he is an adult, he can choose to leave the church, but as a child, he should allow his parents to fulfill the duties you feel are part of your responsibility in raising your family.

When he turns 12, I would not push him to receive the Priesthood, unless he has a desire to receive it and I would not push him to attend early morning Seminary later, if he doesn't want to. Of course, by that age, he might want to attend for social reasons. As long as he is willing to attend church with his family and will participate in family scripture and prayer, that's probably enough to ask of him, if he has no belief.

Anyway, I think the best thing your wife can do is pray for him and also pray for understanding of his particular situation and needs--hopefully the spirit will guide her to know how to help him and also grant her peace and comfort regarding this situation, so that you all can still enjoy a close and loving family relationship regardless of the direction he chooses to go when he is an adult.

Yeah? Because we all know that things will get really damned un-harmonious if the woman doesn't get her way on this issue. I get the message. Do what she wants or your life is going to be Hell.

Jesus. What a cult.

[_wenglund]

Yeah? Because we all know that things will get really f*****g un-harmonious if the woman doesn't get her way on this issue. I get the message. Do what she wants or your life is going to be Hell.

Jesus. What a cult.

Sounds more to me like your issue is with women, not the Church. Unbridled prejudice can often confuse things that way.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_antishock8]

Yeah? Because we all know that things will get really f*****g un-harmonious if the woman doesn't get her way on this issue. I get the message. Do what she wants or your life is going to be Hell.

Jesus. What a cult.

Sounds more to me like your issue is with women, not the Church. Unbridled prejudice can often confuse things that way.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Sethbag]

I have a rhetorical question for you, Cinepro. There is no right or wrong answer, I'm just trying to get a better peek into your mind:

WHICH WOULD YOU PREFER:

A. That your son grow up to believe everything about Mormonism, or
B. That your son grow up to believe nothing about Mormonism?

If you include basic things like "honesty", "chastity" and "charity" in the "everything", then I would say "everything". In other words, I don't want him throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The problem here is that the LDS church has no monopoly on values like honesty, charity, even chastity. If you recognize, in your heart of hearts, that the LDS church is not really being actively lead by a God who really exists, then where do you suppose these values came from? The answer is simple: from the hearts of well-intentioned fellow human beings. And there are 7 billion other human beings on the planet - I'm sure you can find others willing to provide good lessons and role models for your son of virtuous attitudes.

The bathwater, in this case, is Joseph Smith hero worship, when you now know, for the most part, that Joseph Smith was in fact a charlatan and a manipulator. The bathwater also contains at least two works of "scripture" that in fact Joseph Smith had a hand in (perhaps all the hands in) inventing, namely the Book of Mormon, and the Pearl of Great Price. The Bible is an ancient work, but is a work of an ancient people's mythology, and also contains an awful lot of really horrible stuff (mainly in the Old Testament). All of these things are talked of in LDS church meetings as literally true, ancient works by people who actually existed, doing things that really happened. They're teaching your son that Noah's Ark really happened, that Adam was the first human being, that nothing died in the world until Adam "fell" from the garden, etc. I'm guessing you probably don't believe those things anymore either.

You're seemingly willing to subject your son to all of this teaching of false facts and made-up, mythological "history", just because they also teach your son not to lie, steal, or touch his pecker. And you seem willing to subject your son to all of this even though he already has told you that he doesn't believe it.

As an analogy, it's like your willingly taking your son to a place where people teach seriously, and truly believe, that Santa Claus really exists, and you think how wonderful it is that these people are also teaching your son to grow up to be a good man. Along with teaching him that Santa Claus really exists, they also teach him mental gymnastics so that, as evidence arises that Santa Claus really doesn't exist, your son can twist and turn his way out of the jam and continue believing in Santa. By the time your son has gone through their whole program long enough, he will be a lifelong believer in Santa and nothing will be able to convince him otherwise, because he's already learnt mental defensive techniques to disarm and dodge and weave around any challenge to the belief that may arise. Is this what you are shooting for? A grown man who is basically honest and charitable, but whose mind is now in the thrall of a modern-day cult of personality?

If the "everything" is just beliefs about God and scripture, independent of ethics and and morality, then I would chose "nothing".

As it is, I think he would place himself in the "nothing" column, and he's a pretty good kid, so I think he already knows the difference.

I like your use of the cliché about the baby and the bathwater. Your son is truly sitting in a brown, icky tub of dirty bathwater. He's expressed a desire to get out of the tub so he hasn't got this dirty water all over him, but you seem content to leave him in there, and even force him to stay.

I seriously question this approach. I respect you hella much as a person and as a thinking person, but I can't say I' agree with you on forcing your son to keep going to a false church that he already doesn't believe in.