Ahhh crap...now my son doesn't want to go to Church!

[_Alter Idem]

Hi Cinepro, As an active, believing LDS woman, I can understand completely why this is a concern for both you and your wife. I really admire you for how you are supporting your wife's desire to raise your children in the church. You encourage harmony in the home by having family scripture study and family prayer and you attend with her. These are good things that can help your children develop moral values and help them to grow to be good and successful members of society.

That alone is a good reason to encourage church attendance, though I'm sure your wife wants more than that for her children. She wants them to develop testimonies; however, that is something that you as parents do not control. Your son may never develop a testimony; that will be up to him. But for now, as a 10 year old, he should be able to understand there are other reasons for participating in religious activities. You can explain to him that attending church, reading scriptures and praying are family activities that are important for family unity and that as a member of the family, he should participate.

You can use yourself as an example; You can explain to him that you also have doubts, yet you participate because you love your wife and this is important to her. A little guilt can be useful:) Let him know that it is very important to his mother that he participate with the family in the faith that you and your wife have chosen to raise your family in. Point out to him that there are some things we do for eachother because we love and support eachother and three hours on Sunday and a little time during the week is not too much to ask to help his mother feel that she is being a good parent and training her child. You can even point out D&C 68:25-28--that as LDS Parents, you believe you have a responsibility to teach and train him. When he is an adult, he can choose to leave the church, but as a child, he should allow his parents to fulfill the duties you feel are part of your responsibility in raising your family.

When he turns 12, I would not push him to receive the Priesthood, unless he has a desire to receive it and I would not push him to attend early morning Seminary later, if he doesn't want to. Of course, by that age, he might want to attend for social reasons. As long as he is willing to attend church with his family and will participate in family scripture and prayer, that's probably enough to ask of him, if he has no belief.

Anyway, I think the best thing your wife can do is pray for him and also pray for understanding of his particular situation and needs--hopefully the spirit will guide her to know how to help him and also grant her peace and comfort regarding this situation, so that you all can still enjoy a close and loving family relationship regardless of the direction he chooses to go when he is an adult.

Yeah? Because we all know that things will get really f*****g un-harmonious if the woman doesn't get her way on this issue. I get the message. Do what she wants or your life is going to be Hell.

Jesus. What a cult.

Goodness sakes, what a twit! (This isn't MADB, anitshock, and if you're going to trash my post with a rude one-liner, you're going to get a slap right back). And why you had to turn it into just one more chance to attack the church, I have no idea. My remarks were in general to all faiths-not just Mormonism, but apparently you couldn't read past "Mormon" and had to react in your typical knee jerk fashion.

I don't know, but I suspect I hit a nerve (as Wade pointed out). Sorry, but them's the breaks. When people get married, they tie themselves to the desires of another person. Whether it's where to live, how to spend vacations, how to spend money, or save it or what to do on a Friday night, that's part of being married. And some people don't figure out that if you consistently fight against or ignore the desires of you spouse, you'll find yourself in an unhappy marriage and if you keep it up, you'll find yourself divorced. That's life and you can think it's sucks, but it won't change it.

If a person does not want to be tied to someone else's desires, hopes, dreams, goals, then they absolutely should not get married. And anyone who would suggest to a person to ignore the feelings of their spouse because they don't share those feelings, is giving very bad advice which will only cause friction and misery.

[_cinepro]

Yeah? Because we all know that things will get really f*****g un-harmonious if the woman doesn't get her way on this issue. I get the message. Do what she wants or your life is going to be Hell.

Jesus. What a cult.

Just to be clear, I am in total agreement with my wife on this issue. There are some things on which we might disagree, but this isn't one of them.

But previous posts raise some interesting questions:

If my son had been honest about his feelings 2 years ago, should he have still been baptised? The obvious answer is "no", but is it really the right answer?

Should my son take the sacrament each week? Is there a point where his inability to participate in "Mormon" things makes him start to feel unnecessarily excluded?

A year from now, he will be getting a lot of pressure to get the priesthood. If he declines, what does that do to his status in the ward? Has anyone ever attended Church with a 12 year old who declined to get the priesthood and was open and honest about his disbelief? What does that do to a Priesthood quorum when you have one boy who just doesn't believe, and is honest (but quiet and respectful) about his disbelief? That could be interesting...

[_antishock8]

Goodness sakes, what a twit! (This isn't MADB, anitshock, and if you're going to trash my post with a rude one-liner, you're going to get a slap right back). And why you had to turn it into just one more chance to attack the church, I have no idea. My remarks were in general to all faiths-not just Mormonism, but apparently you couldn't read past "Mormon" and had to react in your typical knee jerk fashion.

I don't know, but I suspect I hit a nerve (as Wade pointed out). Sorry, but them's the breaks. When people get married, they tie themselves to the desires of another person. Whether it's where to live, how to spend vacations, how to spend money, or save it or what to do on a Friday night, that's part of being married. And some people don't figure out that if you consistently fight against or ignore the desires of you spouse, you'll find yourself in an unhappy marriage and if you keep it up, you'll find yourself divorced. That's life and you can think it's sucks, but it won't change it.

If a person does not want to be tied to someone else's desires, hopes, dreams, goals, then they absolutely should not get married. And anyone who would suggest to a person to ignore the feelings of their spouse because they don't share those feelings, is giving very bad advice which will only cause friction and misery.

Oh, my! What a dumb cunt! I'm sorry, but if you're going to direct a personal attack at me, be prepared for it to come right back atcha.

That being said, that little spiel you just gave about tying yourself to another person goes both ways, honey. He should be free to not force his kid to go to church, and she should honor that if that's what he wants to do. Funny thing is I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be the case... And we all know it. Just how supportive would she be if he wanted to quit the Mormon church and take his non-believing kid with him? Hmm? HMM???

[_Sethbag]

Cinepro, I think it would be very interesting indeed to see what would happen with a 12-year old non-deacon still attending the ward, not passing the sacrament, sitting in quorum meetings, etc. I don't think it'll happen though. The pressure to "choose to be ordained" will be too great. It's just like when the bishop stands up at an 8-year old's baptism and congratulates the child on "choosing" to be baptised.

It's like Brezhnev standing up on Soviet television and thanking 100% of his countrymen for choosing to vote for him. There's no real choice here - the will of the parents, and the bishop, and everyone else in "authority" over the child, will be observed, one way or another. Parents are too good at manipulating children for there to be any real choice in the matter.

[_antishock8]

Cinepro,

You've made this patently clear that this isn't about your kid. This issue is about you and your spouse. I'm not sure why you can't follow your conscience, and I'm not sure why you don't feel like you can put your son's wishes ahead of everyone else's in this case, but it's something that you're obviously trying to work out here.

I'll reiterate that it's pretty crappy to force your kid to attend a church he doesn't like, nor believes. It's a cruel ruse that you continue to mask your disbelief. It's a sham of a relationship if you have to abide by her religious edicts in order to maintain harmony. Lies and deceit are the seeds that have been sown in your family on every level. This is the truth. Listen to yourself. Listen to your son. Think about these things. These are very important and fundamental issues in both your lives. Self-deception is no good...

[_Sethbag]

by the way, I'm feeling uneasy about the way this is going, my part included. Cinepro is intellectually a very good and insightful critic, and I feel like we're sort of turning on him and attacking him, and that would be a very short-sighted and uncharitable thing to do.

Cinepro, love ya man, and I just want to say that I respect you a lot even though I don't agree with you in this particular thread. You're easily a member of the inner circle of "Seth's all-time favorite LDS critics" club.

[_asbestosman]

I like Cinepro too, but I'd rather have him on my side. It's almost the same as his side but with more faith in church claims. Maybe I can use this apparent rift to my advantage. I'll even let him rename my side to the Cinepro side and I'll waive any membership fees.

[_beastie]

Oh, my! What a dumb c***!

I find this particular insult particularly repellent and usually lose quite a bit of respect for any man who would feel comfortable using it.

[_asbestosman]

I find this particular insult particularly repellent and usually lose quite a bit of respect for any man who would feel comfortable using it.

As an aside, what do you think about calling someone after male anatomy (or was it a nickname for Richard)? I find the c word more offensive somehow myself, but I never use it and I don't hold women in contempt--we just don't communicate very well.

[_Alter Idem]

Goodness sakes, what a twit! (This isn't MADB, anitshock, and if you're going to trash my post with a rude one-liner, you're going to get a slap right back). And why you had to turn it into just one more chance to attack the church, I have no idea. My remarks were in general to all faiths-not just Mormonism, but apparently you couldn't read past "Mormon" and had to react in your typical knee jerk fashion.

I don't know, but I suspect I hit a nerve (as Wade pointed out). Sorry, but them's the breaks. When people get married, they tie themselves to the desires of another person. Whether it's where to live, how to spend vacations, how to spend money, or save it or what to do on a Friday night, that's part of being married. And some people don't figure out that if you consistently fight against or ignore the desires of you spouse, you'll find yourself in an unhappy marriage and if you keep it up, you'll find yourself divorced. That's life and you can think it's sucks, but it won't change it.

If a person does not want to be tied to someone else's desires, hopes, dreams, goals, then they absolutely should not get married. And anyone who would suggest to a person to ignore the feelings of their spouse because they don't share those feelings, is giving very bad advice which will only cause friction and misery.

Oh, my! What a dumb c***! I'm sorry, but if you're going to direct a personal attack at me, be prepared for it to come right back atcha.

That being said, that little spiel you just gave about tying yourself to another person goes both ways, honey. He should be free to not force his kid to go to church, and she should honor that if that's what he wants to do. Funny thing is I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be the case... And we all know it. Just how supportive would she be if he wanted to quit the Mormon church and take his non-believing kid with him? Hmm? HMM???

If he listens to YOU, he can be miserable, just like you. But that's what you want--you want others to be as miserable as you are. It validates your choices. You've got serious issues when it comes to women; your misogynous rant about advice I gave to someone else--it wasn't even directed at you!!-- and then using that kind of epithet against a woman--Get some help.