Dale's Thoughts on Joseph Smith's Polygamy

[_Dale]

"But the one published in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants by the Utah Church was not the one that Bishop Whitney showed me at Winter Quarters. It was not the same at all. It was entirely changed. It was changed that it sanctioned polygamy, and that change was made by the Brighamites. For there was no such thing in it when I read it. You can find it yourself in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants published by the Brighamites in Salt Lake, and you will see in it, as published by them, that it sanctions and imposes polygamy on the church, but there was no such thing in the revelation that Whitney showed me." (Temple Lot Case, James Whitehead Testimony, pg. 475,476.)

"It was entirely changed, but there were some points of similarity in it. It did not have the same language at all. I knew, that, when I read it that I considered that they had got up that revelation from Bishop Whitney, and had changed it and added to it, it had nothing to do with polygamy when I read it at Winter Quarters; and when it was published, they had changed it around until they made it sanction polygamy; and the revelation that Whitney had, did not say anything about polygamy." (pg.476)

[_Inconceivable]

Dale,

No doubt, something is rotten in Deseret.

I would agree that the way Joseph Smith lived the lie was somewhat disimilar from the way his friends did after he died. But it just keeps coming back to whether Smith committed adultery while claiming divine inspiration to lead those that may have been more virtuous than himself.

Somewhat off the subject: I would add that I wholeheartedly reject Abraham as a prophet or father of many nations. From my perspective I see him as one that forsook his role as a father and provider for his bastard son and the mother, Hagar. To use him as a stellar example of a celestial patriarch is to defy reason and humanity. Deadbeat dad. To see polygamists referencing him as a precedence for practicing the immoral is wrong reason.

[_Dale]

I am not certain Joseph Smith was guilty of adultury with all the many women charged. But if he was i see no reason to defend him. This is the approach to it many in my denomination take today. http://www.cofchrist.org/ourfaith/faq.asp?pr=yes

I can find statements that affirm D.&C.132 is a true copy of the original also. James Whitehead is but one witness.

1831 polygamy revelation? "Other contemporary evidence suggests, however, that Smith's revelation was not intended to foreshadow polygamy but rather to remove obstacles to missionary work which Indian agents in Kansas-Missouri had created." "Phelps could have mistaken the 'we" in his recollection. Smith may have intended miscegnation as a general Mormon rule rather than a specific divine directive to the seven men on the trip." (Excerpts from my copy of Mormon Polygamy A History by Richards S. Van Wagoneer page 12, note 2.)

Fanny Alger-I see her and Joseph Smith having a brief affair. But unlike Todd Compton i do not think she should be listed as a plural wife of Joseph Smith. One of his sources i consider untrustworthy is statements made by Mosiah Hancock. He has his Father arranging the marriage for Joseph Smith. But he also claims Levi reported to him Joseph Smith Jr. prophecied his son Joseph smith 3rd would be a false prophet. The source is online at the Book of Abraham Project and i suspect Levi, or Mosiah told stories that may not be true.

[_Inconceivable]

I am not certain Joseph Smith was guilty of adultury with all the many women charged.

Fanny Alger-I see her and Joseph Smith having a brief affair. But unlike Todd Compton I do not think she should be listed as a plural wife of Joseph Smith.

To use terms like wife or marriage when refering to Smith's extramarital affairs (physical or otherwise) is to fly in the face of the laws of the land. There are so many things wrong. And once again, Smith died an impenetant adulterer for at least one impropriety (if not many).

[_truth dancer]

Dale writes,

Fanny Alger-I see her and Joseph Smith having a brief affair. But unlike Todd Compton I do not think she should be listed as a plural wife of Joseph Smith.

TOTALLY agree with this.

Inc writes,

To use terms like wife or marriage when refering to Smith's extramarital affairs (physical or otherwise) is to fly in the face of the laws of the land. There are so many things wrong. And once again, Smith died an impenetant adulterer for at least one impropriety (if not many).

Totally agree with this too. :-)

Joseph Smith's pretend marriages with girls and women were simply affairs, just like all the other men who claim God told them to screw girls and women.

It is funny how people actually believe God would command such a thing.

Just like the world is looking at Warren Jeffs and knowing that God is not at the helm of such a belief system, so too can we look at Joseph Smith and know God had NOTHING to do with the cruelty and perversion he promoted as a Godly eternal system of "marriage".

I see men who condemn such a practice because they love their wives and honor their marriages as the truly noble ones, not those guys who adore/worship Joseph Smith and believe God had everything to do with the destruction of true marriage in favor of the harem.

Polygamy as Joseph Smith designed it has nothing to do with marriage. We can see how it played out as we observe the FLDS. It was about gaining power, owning women, earning a higher place in heaven, and having multiple girls and women to screw. Period.

~dancer~

[_Yoda]

(Moderator Note)

Ray's ad hominem comments regarding Shades and Scratch have been moved to the Telestial Forum due to language.. Liz

[_truth dancer]

Hi Inc,

Somewhat off the subject: I would add that I wholeheartedly reject Abraham as a prophet or father of many nations. From my perspective I see him as one that forsook his role as a father and provider for his bastard son and the mother, Hagar. To use him as a stellar example of a celestial patriarch is to defy reason and humanity. Deadbeat dad. To see polygamists referencing him as a precedence for practicing the immoral is wrong reason.

Yeah... he also bound his son on an alter and was totally ready to kill his son by stabbing him with a knife, so he, Abraham could get to heaven.

I just don't see him as such a great guy.

:-(

~dancer~

[_Inconceivable]

Hi Inc,

Somewhat off the subject: I would add that I wholeheartedly reject Abraham as a prophet or father of many nations. From my perspective I see him as one that forsook his role as a father and provider for his bastard son and the mother, Hagar. To use him as a stellar example of a celestial patriarch is to defy reason and humanity. Deadbeat dad. To see polygamists referencing him as a precedence for practicing the immoral is wrong reason.

Yeah... he also bound his son on an alter and was totally ready to kill his son by stabbing him with a knife, so he, Abraham could get to heaven.

I just don't see him as such a great guy.

:-(

~dancer~

I forgot about that. And I wonder how many crazy parents have read that crap over the past thousand + years, got deluded and killed pefectly good children. Why didn't angels stay these hands? Were these children any less pure (or valuable) than Isaac? Or their parents any less fractured? What an evil imagination it took to fabricate such things so long ago.

Thanks for the comments, TD. I swear I'm invisible here sometimes.

[_Trinity]

Hi Inc,

Somewhat off the subject: I would add that I wholeheartedly reject Abraham as a prophet or father of many nations. From my perspective I see him as one that forsook his role as a father and provider for his bastard son and the mother, Hagar. To use him as a stellar example of a celestial patriarch is to defy reason and humanity. Deadbeat dad. To see polygamists referencing him as a precedence for practicing the immoral is wrong reason.

Yeah... he also bound his son on an alter and was totally ready to kill his son by stabbing him with a knife, so he, Abraham could get to heaven.

I just don't see him as such a great guy.

:-(

~dancer~

I forgot about that. And I wonder how many crazy parents have read that crap over the past thousand + years, got deluded and killed pefectly good children. Why didn't angels stay these hands? Were these children any less pure (or valuable) than Isaac? Or their parents any less fractured? What an evil imagination it took to fabricate such things so long ago.

Thanks for the comments, TD. I swear I'm invisible here sometimes.

It's because of that mask you're wearing, Inconveivable. ;)

Hi Dale,

I've been reading your posts for years. I continue to wonder what your ultimate point is by trying to prove Joseph did not have sex with these women. Are we supposed to be placated with his behaviors towards these women by the removal of the sexual component?

I am also a direct line descendant of Benjamin Johnson, and I am not the only one on this board who is. I also would like to know, from you, why you feel Johnson would be compelled to make up stories in his journal about Joseph and his honeymoon trysts with Almera and Delcena.

[Guest]

Todd Compton makes a solid case Almira had to have been sealed to Joseph Smith in April of 1843. Yet in both of their testimonies they claim Hyrum Smith was encouraging Almira to be sealed to Joseph Smith. My copy of Mormon Enigma revealed that Hyrum Smith only could have converted to polygamy in late May, or early June. The claim about Hyrum Smith is a bonafied lie if the sealing happened in April. So i hold the their testimonies suspect until i see Todd Compton disproved on his solid case for the April date.

Todd Compton himself admitted no sexuality was likely present in some of Joseph Smith marriages. I think caution should be had with the list of 33 wives as a result.

Remember i doubt the testimony of the key earthly wives. If i trusted them i would admit to some earthly polygamy on Joseph Smiths part. But i would still see many of Joseph Smiths sealings or marriages as platonic in nature. With the sexuality part saved for the afterlife. And i also think D.&C. 132 and William Claytons Nauvoo Journal could be fakes. I am not hardcore that he had to be innocent of the earthly polygamy part. So i have given the earthly wives the benifit of the doubt on many an occasion also. But honestly i doubt some of the claims.