Did Elder Holland open a can of worms?

Post by **_Sethbag** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:46 pm

Scottie wrote:When did the term Mormon first start being used to describe this church? Was it used internally first, or externally?

It was used during Joseph Smith's day, that's for sure. I'd have to say they were called "Mormons" at the very least within a couple years or so of the church being founded. I know the Missourians were calling them Mormons by the mid 1830s.

The LDS church's primary argument about why they and only they are really Mormons would hinge on the religious claim that they (the SLC church) are in fact still the same church Joseph Smith founded, and none of the others are. Of course, since this is purely a religious claim, others, who believe that they in fact are the true successors to Joseph Smith's church, would disagree.

The LDS church in essence is claiming victory over the others in a matter of religious belief, and then expecting the press to ratify this victory by acceding to the LDS Church's demands with respect to use of the word Mormon. They are asking the press to declare them the true church Joseph Smith founded. That's not the job of the press, and so I don't agree with this attitude by the LDS church, and I hope the press has enough balls to recognize the ploy and not play along with it either.

IMHO, if the LDS Church insists so publicly on their right to call themselves Christians on the basis of their belief in Christ, then the FLDS, or any other sect of believers that has descended from the church Joseph Smith founded, should be able to rightfully associate themselves with the term Mormon. After all, they actually believe in Mormon, read the Book of Mormon, claim to be the successors to Joseph Smith's church of Mormons, etc.

Post by **_Scottie** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:24 pm

I agree Seth.

God is no respecter of persons, governments or laws. If God's will is to institute polygamy, then by damned, polygamy will be instituted! No government is going to stop that! Hell, people died protecting that!

So which church do you think would be the true one? (assuming there is a true LDS church) The church that almost mirrors the one Joseph Smith founded and is STILL fighting the country to uphold God's unchangeable laws, or the one that is trying to hide and distance itself from it's embarrassing "mistakes" and succumbing to every pressure the government imposes upon them?

Post by **_Jason Bourne** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:05 pm

Last night on FOX the reporter called the FLDS The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as well as Mormon and did not distinguish from the SLC Church.

Post by **_Trevor** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:34 am

Jason Bourne wrote:Last night on FOX the reporter called the FLDS The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as well as Mormon and did not distinguish from the SLC Church.

Any guesses as to how Rupert Murdoch feels about Mormons?

Post by **_cinepro** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:52 am

I think I'll write a book for the FLDS called "Are FLDS Mormon?" I'm sure it'd be a big seller.

Post by **_ajax18** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:14 am

truth dancer wrote:Hi Cinepro,

"..but I can't help but think that the Texas group really are Mormons, in the truest sense of the word. And even though the SLC branch of the Church stopped selling their brand of crazy 100 years ago, it doesn't give us the right to limit the use of the word when applied to others who believe in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon (more than us, in some cases)."

Totally agree. The FLDS are much closer to the original church Joseph Smith set up than the LDS, and in my opinion, the LDS church does not have the right to decide who does or does not get to use a word to describe themselves.

Personally, if I were running the PR dept (smile) I would have long ago dropped the "Mormon" title altogether but that is just me. ;-) Actually, If I recall correctly, they tried at one time but members didn't like the idea. Oh well...

~dancer~

Truth is, I never really liked dropping the term Mormon either. Didn't Joseph Smith say Mormon meant, more good, and if people wanted to call us Mormons that was fine. I guess that was back when being different won converts. It's almost as if PR has become the new god to Mormonism, just as political correctness and diversity are the new gods worshipped by America. I'm not sure I like any of these new gods.

I agree TD that since the Church's main concern is membership growth, dropping the "Mormon" label will probably better their public image in the minds of more people. Yet I still believe that while the Church may add more numbers this way, it will not increase the level of conviction in its converts and leaves itself a lot of explaining to do to some older members it hopes to retain. I'm not convinced they're really strengthening the Church when they renounce old doctrines to look better to the outside world. Perhaps they have given up on having a strong philosophical position altogether and are now putting all their cards into the "social club," appeal? Maybe that's the direction they decided to go. When did this really start and just how much more mainstreaming have we seen under the leadership of President Hinckley? Will we see more of the same under Pres. Monson, or will Elder Packard gain more influence and draw a harder line?

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:29 am

So what are you, Cinepro? You come here to spill your beans with angry exmos, and they kiss your ass in praise. No doubt this pleases you. What do you want, Cinepro, praise? Acceptance? Why the f-u-c-k don't you just resign from the Church?

What STILL draws you to Mormonism?

Closet believer? Yea, don't give me a lecture about your "Mormon roots", and how solid you are. Don't tell me your "line" goes back to Joseph Smith, because I don't give a flying f-u-c-k.

You are confiding, and have the fatuous praise, of people who think like you. Why not just join them? Afraid to lose your family? Or do you still have some doubts, like when you expressed that marvellous testimony of the Book of Mormon on FAIR, which influenced me so much to start posting there.

Post by **_the road to hana** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:16 pm

Ray A wrote:So what are you, Cinepro? You come here to spill your beans with angry exmos, and they kiss your ass in praise. No doubt this pleases you. What do you want, Cinepro, praise? Acceptance? Why the f-u-c-k don't you just resign from the Church?

What STILL draws you to Mormonism?

Closet believer? Yea, don't give me a lecture about your "Mormon roots", and how solid you are. Don't tell me your "line" goes back to Joseph Smith, because I don't give a flying f-u-c-k.

You are confiding, and have the fatuous praise, of people who think like you. Why not just join them? Afraid to lose your family? Or do you still have some doubts, like when you expressed that marvellous testimony of the Book of Mormon on FAIR, which influenced me so much to start posting there.

Great. I see the ranting, expletive-spewing version of Ray A. 3.0 has resurfaced. Happy day.

Post by **_cinepro** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:56 pm

Ray A wrote:So what are you, Cinepro? You come here to spill your beans with angry exmos, and they kiss your ass in praise. No doubt this pleases you. What do you want, Cinepro, praise? Acceptance? Why the f*** don't you just resign from the Church?

What STILL draws you to Mormonism?

Closet believer? Yea, don't give me a lecture about your "Mormon roots", and how solid you are. Don't tell me your "line" goes back to Joseph Smith, because I don't give a flying f***.

You are confiding, and have the fatuous praise, of people who think like you. Why not just join them? Afraid to lose your family? Or do you still have some doubts, like when you expressed that marvellous testimony of the Book of Mormon on FAIR, which influenced me so much to start posting there.

Are you sure you posted in the right thread?

Post by **_Jason Bourne** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:12 pm

Ray A wrote:So what are you, Cinepro? You come here to spill your beans with angry exmos, and they kiss your ass in praise. No doubt this pleases you. What do you want, Cinepro, praise? Acceptance? Why the f*** don't you just resign from the Church?

What STILL draws you to Mormonism?

Closet believer? Yea, don't give me a lecture about your "Mormon roots", and how solid you are. Don't tell me your "line" goes back to Joseph Smith, because I don't give a flying f***.

You are confiding, and have the fatuous praise, of people who think like you. Why not just join them? Afraid to lose your family? Or do you still have some doubts, like when you expressed that marvellous testimony of the Book of Mormon on FAIR, which influenced me so much to start posting there.

Wow Ray. You have come back an angry man. What's up?