Church Surveillance

[_wenglund]

Oh...but we aren't averse to discussing these things. We have been quite liberal in sharing our opinions and giving your beliefs on the subjectmatter whatever level of seriousness we think them due--kind of how you do the same with we apologists and our beliefs about the Church. You just are loath to take even the slightest taste of your own medicine. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Where have I ever ridiculed your beliefs about the Church, Wade? Where have I ever labeled your beliefs in anywhere near the same vein as your conspiracy theory stuff? Feel free to prove me wrong on this. Otherwise, you are guilty of rank hypocrisy.

Your stunning logic aside, if I thought your request was genuine, and believed you capable of reasonable self-assessment (self-"monitoring") and open to honest and well-intended feedback, I might take the time to scour your numerous post and provide you with the evidence. However, the fact that your mockery of "we apologists and our faith" is not self-evident, suggests to me that at the very least you lack the capacity to reasonably and accurately self-assess, and thus my efforts for substantiation would be an exercise in futility (as have been too many other such attempts by me to document my assertions with you). So, I am fine with you thinking me guilty of rank hypocrisy and whatever.

Besides, documenting the general impression I have gotten of you over the years would require a greater level of "monitoring" of your activities than my interest in you would permit, and more importantly, may chance aggitating your proclivity for conspiritorializing, and furtilize your imagination to where you may view me like unto the KGB. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Mister Scratch]

I dismiss them because I remember trying to locate people by asking around about them, looking in phone directories, and every other means that I came across that might provide an indication of where I might be able to talk to them.

Including sending Church Security to a person's attorney's home? Moreover, did these people want to be "talked to"? Quinn clearly didn't, and the Church disregarded his wishes.

I can easily see those rather innocent attempts at locating a person being made into a tale distrubuted around RfM as a sign that LDS Inc. is in fact Big Brother. All I was trying to do was get an update on the person so that I could make up for their failure to keep their records in some order.

I'm not sure I follow you here, Quaker. What "records" are you talking about?

Even if they wanted them sent to Salt Lake for storage, that's at least better than the condition in which they are left.

Who is "they"? The Brethren? The COB? The SCMC?

dare say that most attempts to locate members can be construed as undercover priesthood record keeping special forces missions. Sometimes people get overzealous, of course.

Glad to hear you admit it.

[_Mister Scratch]

I find the TBM reactions to all of this very telling. When accounts of the Church's "Orwellian" duplicity, record keeping, and surveillance are presented, TBMs tend to react, almost uniformly, with derision and dismissal, and usually with rather predictable jokes about tinfoil hats and the like. Why, I wonder, are TBMs so averse to discussing these things?

All due credit to Nehor, who at least is willing to go out on a limb and call Quinn (in not so many words) a liar. All due credit, too, for admitting that yes, in fact, the Church was apparently "hunting" someone down, in rather creepy and "Orwellian" fashion. As to whether or not this was "cruel," I only know, based on the account, that Quinn didn't want to deal with disciplinary letters due to his experience at BYU---I.e., his "pressured" resignation. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that he'd want to avoid going through that kind of experience a second time.

If I was averse to discussing it, Uncle Creepy, I would have avoided this thread.

Quinn could have EASILY avoided having much to do with the whole process. Call Stake President. Tell him you are NOT coming to any disciplinary hearing and they can do what they like.

Unless I'm mistaken, Quinn had been quite clear that he didn't want to be bothered. Why did the Church disregard his wishes? That doesn't seem very Christian, in my opinion.

The Church often 'hunts' people down for disciplinary hearings.

Well, I find this incredibly disquieting and sinister.

However, I don't see any evidence that the 'Mormon Gestapo' was behind it. Could it have been his Home Teachers? Members of the High Council? Confused Missionaries?

His attorney was contacted by Church Security agents. Also, he was able to determine that one of the people trying to get a hold of him was writing/calling from the COB. I don't think that "confused missionaries" would try to get to him via a bogus credit card application.

[_moksha]

Does anyone else find this story ridiculous? Why in the world would 'Church Security' care where he lived?

Quinn, in his career as a historian, has unearthed perhaps more embarrassing truths about the Church than anyone---ever. Moreover, it seems that BKP had a personal vendetta against him. I wouldn't be surprised if Elder Packer had personally ordered these Church Security agents to hunt Quinn down.

Yes, the cruelty of hunting a man down so you can give him a letter regarding a disciplinary council......how horribly Orwellian of them.

Would it be more Orwellian or Swiftian? (Kafka-like?) Anyway, that was before satellite imaging technology got better. Now they can see us sitting at our computer sipping Pepsi. BOND!... put your hands back on the keyboard!

[_Mister Scratch]

Wade:

Do you believe the Church is justified in "monitoring" members in the way that it does? Y/N?

Yes...I believe it quite reasonable for the Church to take roll in Sunday School and Priesthood meetings and to count heads in Sacrament Meetings, just as I believe the same for public educational systems and their respective coursework and activities.

Come on, Wade. We both know that Church surveillance of members goes far, far beyond taking attendance. We know, for example, that the SCMC maintains files on "dissident" Church members, and that Church Security have been involved in "intelligence gathering" and "stake-outs."

Your stunning logic aside, if I thought your request was genuine, and believed you capable of reasonable self-assessment (self-"monitoring") and open to honest and well-intended feedback, I might take the time to scour your numerous post and provide you with the evidence. However, the fact that your mockery of "we apologists and our faith" is not self-evident, suggests to me that at the very least you lack the capacity to reasonably and accurately self-assess, and thus my efforts for substantiation would be an exercise in futility (as have been too many other such attempts by me to document my assertions with you). So, I am fine with you thinking me guilty of rank hypocrisy and whatever.

Gee, Wade, and I thought you had such an air-tight argument that it would scarcely have taken any effort at all on your part! Instead, you admit that it's virtually impossible to find instances of me "mocking" your belief. Or, in other words, No, you don't have any evidence. Thanks, Wade: you lose again.

[_Trevor]

I find the TBM reactions to all of this very telling. When accounts of the Church's "Orwellian" duplicity, record keeping, and surveillance are presented, TBMs tend to react, almost uniformly, with derision and dismissal, and usually with rather predictable jokes about tinfoil hats and the like. Why, I wonder, are TBMs so averse to discussing these things

When you are inside the system, benefit from it, and are not adversely affected by it, it is indeed difficult to perceive the problems or dignify these accusations. It is only when you live in a banana republic that you appreciate the real harm that is done by a nation like the US. It is only when you deeply offend people in power that you appreciate what their power can mean in negative terms. For the fat, happy, and complacent to deny these problems is their luxury, and it is also utterly meaningless with regard to the full extent of the reality of the case.

[_Mister Scratch]

I find the TBM reactions to all of this very telling. When accounts of the Church's "Orwellian" duplicity, record keeping, and surveillance are presented, TBMs tend to react, almost uniformly, with derision and dismissal, and usually with rather predictable jokes about tinfoil hats and the like. Why, I wonder, are TBMs so averse to discussing these things

When you are inside the system, benefit from it, and are not adversely affected by it, it is indeed difficult to perceive the problems or dignify these accusations. It is only when you live in a banana republic that you appreciate the real harm that is done by a nation like the US. It is only when you deeply offend people in power that you appreciate what their power can mean in negative terms. For the fat, happy, and complacent to deny these problems is their luxury, and it is also utterly meaningless with regard to the full extent of the reality of the case.

Yes; the documentation is all there. The Church itself has admitted to the existence of the SCMC. The Church itself has admitted to the BYU spy ring. And, further, we have Nehor here admitting that the Church "hunts down" people it wants to discipline. Thus, these claims of "tinfoil hats," and the general pooh-poohing away of stuff which has been admitted to by the Church itself, points to some very deep insecurity and worry on the part of TBMs. But what is the root of this worry? Is it a fear that outsiders will think badly of the Church? Fear that this kind of stuff genuinely exists within the Church (and in a secretive fashion to boot)? Or, is it a fear of having to acknowledge that they willingly sustain an organization that engages in this obviously questionable behavior?

[_The Nehor]

I find the TBM reactions to all of this very telling. When accounts of the Church's "Orwellian" duplicity, record keeping, and surveillance are presented, TBMs tend to react, almost uniformly, with derision and dismissal, and usually with rather predictable jokes about tinfoil hats and the like. Why, I wonder, are TBMs so averse to discussing these things

When you are inside the system, benefit from it, and are not adversely affected by it, it is indeed difficult to perceive the problems or dignify these accusations. It is only when you live in a banana republic that you appreciate the real harm that is done by a nation like the US. It is only when you deeply offend people in power that you appreciate what their power can mean in negative terms. For the fat, happy, and complacent to deny these problems is their luxury, and it is also utterly meaningless with regard to the full extent of the reality of the case.

Yes; the documentation is all there. The Church itself has admitted to the existence of the SCMC. The Church itself has admitted to the BYU spy ring. And, further, we have Nehor here admitting that the Church "hunts down" people it wants to discipline. Thus, these claims of "tinfoil hats," and the general pooh-poohing away of stuff which has been admitted to by the Church itself, points to some very deep insecurity and worry on the part of TBMs. But what is the root of this worry? Is it a fear that outsiders will think badly of the Church? Fear that this kind of stuff genuinely exists within the Church (and in a secretive fashion to boot)? Or, is it a fear of having to acknowledge that they willingly sustain an organization that engages in this obviously questionable behavior?

I was using your terms when I said 'hunts' Scratch. By hunting I meant something similar to a Missionary looking for a less-active's address though I'm sure in your insanity this will become one of your favorite quotable quotes, Uncle Creepy.

[_harmony]

His attorney was contacted by Church Security agents.

How would anyone know if a visitor was from Church Security? I mean, do they wear a badge? Do they identify themselves as from LDS church security?

Good grief.

[_moksha]

How would anyone know if a visitor was from Church Security? I mean, do they wear a badge? Do they identify themselves as from LDS church security?

Crew cuts, speaking into their black name tags, the smell of Amway aftershave.