Forgiveness

[_Moniker]

That's funny, Merc.

Forgiveness has always been a strange concept for me. My TBM grandmother used to say, "I'll forgive, but I'll never forget". To me, her philosophy holds our angst hostage within us. I agree, letting it go releases a very real burden.

I think learning from experiences is one thing, yet holding on to the contempt or bitter feelings is something else entirely. I find it interesting in a some religions the idea that forgiveness must be asked after sin from God or the Church authorities. I find that odd -- I think the only one that has the ability to forgive is the one hurt in some manner. And it's not so much for the one that "sinned" -- rather that the person hurt can let go of the heavy load of emotional pain.

I've also seems to me that holding others for contempt for too long has the effect of transforming us towards the character we hate the most in that person.

I could not agree more! I find that it withers my character to hold on to bitterness and anger. I've also found that holding on to resentment more often than not only impacts me! No doubt who ever caused the harm has moved on to greener pastures and doesn't even give a crap about it while I'm just stewing.

That's pointless. ;P

[_Inconceivable]

Yet, the most damaging of all angst is to be unwilling to forgive ourselves. We need to let that go too.

Oh yeah, and never read "The Miracle of Forgiveness" by SWK. He had not even a clue being in his position on the outside looking in. That did more damage to my soul than any one book.

[_Moniker]

Yet, the most damaging of all angst is to be unwilling to forgive ourselves. We need to let that go too.

Again, I agree! I just need to follow you and BishopRic about nodding enthusiastically and clapping behind each post! :)

Oh yeah, and never read "The Miracle of Forgiveness" by SWK. He had not even a clue being in his position on the outside looking in. That did more damage to my soul than any one book.

K, I won't! I promise!

[_Sam Harris]

From what I've learned in mainstream Christianity, you're supposed to forgive, regardless of whether or not the person offending you is sorry, if you yourself want to be forgiven. I've struggled with that for years dealing with parents who weren't sorry for their abuse/neglect/lies. One I've forgiven as he's dead and can't hurt me anymore. The other, I've finally forgiven because I've come to the conclusion that either she doesn't know what she's doing to me, or she does, and that makes her deranged. I think in some cases, with forgiveness must come pity.

Still, even as a Christian (borderline at this point...fundies are annoying), I have a problem with forcing people to forgive repeat offenders that they're constantly in contact with. The 70X7 rule really got to me, until it was explained to me that perhaps with forgiveness comes an acceptance of the state of the offender, and the fact that you can't change that. With forgiveness, you detach...and move onto something better.

I think the belief is the same in the mainstream thought of the LDS community. There are those who say forgive no matter what, and some who really struggle with that, and some who just understand that for them, where they are right now, that's not possible.

In the Church is it held up as a special card that some hold on to and others must grovel before them before it is given? Seems strange, to me....

Sadly, the fundies throughout Christianity do this. Especially the power-hungry in the LDS church. I remember those "interviews" in which I had to self-depricate and confess that which didn't really apply to the person I was speaking to...for some reason I needed God to forgive me through them. I think it's sick.

Notice the differences stressed between Church and community. You can belong to a faith and not agree with every tenet. I think in this case, there are more people going under the radar of church hierarchy on the issue of forgiveness than we know. Sure, when the bishop is involved, LDS toe the line, but when it's individuals, I think that folks go back to being human...

[_Moniker]

From what I've learned in mainstream Christianity, you're supposed to forgive, regardless of whether or not the person offending you is sorry, if you yourself want to be forgiven.

Okay, well that makes sense, I suppose.

Still, even as a Christian (borderline at this point...fundies are annoying), I have a problem with forcing people to forgive repeat offenders that they're constantly in contact with. The 70X7 rule really got to me, until it was explained to me that perhaps with forgiveness comes an acceptance of the state of the offender, and the fact that you can't change that. With forgiveness, you detach...and move onto something better.

I agree. I can forgive someone -- doesn't mean I want anything to do with them. You hurt me I can forgive you, yet, back the hell off. :)

I think the belief is the same in the mainstream thought of the LDS community. There are those who say forgive no matter what, and some who really struggle with that, and some who just understand that for them, where they are right now, that's not possible.

Well, I find it interesting that those in Christianity ask for forgiveness. I wonder if it's set up as a way to ease burdens. I've had people ask for my forgiveness and I just wasn't ready -- so a big "NO!" to you! I'm not going to forgive you so you can feel better!

In the Church is it held up as a special card that some hold on to and others must grovel before them before it is given? Seems strange, to me....

Sadly, the fundies throughout Christianity do this. Especially the power-hungry in the LDS church. I remember those "interviews" in which I had to self-depricate and confess that which didn't really apply to the person I was speaking to...for some reason I needed God to forgive me through them. I think it's sick.

Well, I've seen mention that people must be contrite and actually feel sorrow for whatever they did... I don't see that as necessary in the least in the aspect of forgiveness. If we went about expecting everyone to feel bad cause they caused a boo boo we'd be some miserable group of folks, I imagine? And that seems to draw it back (from what I've witnessed from Christians) that we must have other people feel horrid from some "sin" -- so they must grovel.... I don't view it that way, at all. Forgiveness is not for the one that caused the harm (not to make them feel better), yet, for the one that was hurt. If no one was hurt by the behavior other than the individual doing said behavior than self forgiveness should be enough -- confessing to someone else appears again as a way to attempt to control behavior through public shame.

[_Inconceivable]

This is a little long but it casts some light on the Mormon concept of forgiveness. You forgive as many times as one repents. However, if they are impenetant, you forgive them only 3 times:

38 Behold, this is an ensample unto all people, saith the Lord your God, for justification before me.
39 And again, verily I say unto you, if after thine enemy has come upon thee the first time, he repent and come unto thee praying thy forgiveness, thou shalt forgive him, and shalt hold it no more as a testimony against thine enemy—
40 And so on unto the second and third time; and as oft as thine enemy repenteth of the trespass wherewith he has trespassed against thee, thou shalt forgive him, until seventy times seven.
41 And if he trespass against thee and repent not the first time, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.
42 And if he trespass against thee the second time, and repent not, nevertheless thou shalt forgive him.
43 And if he trespass against thee the third time, and repent not, thou shalt also forgive him.
44 But if he trespass against thee the fourth time thou shalt not forgive him, but shalt bring these testimonies before the Lord; and they shall not be blotted out until he repent and reward thee four–fold in all things wherewith he has trespassed against thee.45 And if he do this, thou shalt forgive him with all thine heart; and if he do not this, I, the Lord, will avenge thee of thine enemy an hundred–fold;
46 And upon his children, and upon his children's children of all them that hate me, unto the third and fourth generation.
47 But if the children shall repent, or the children's children, and turn to the Lord their God, with all their hearts and with all their might, mind, and strength, and restore four–fold for all their trespasses wherewith they have trespassed, or wherewith their fathers have trespassed, or their fathers' fathers, then thine indignation shall be turned away;
48 And vengeance shall no more come upon them, saith the Lord thy God, and their trespasses shall never be brought any more as a testimony before the Lord against them. Amen.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 98:38 - 48)

[_Moniker]

Thanks, inconceivable.

I don't think I'm articulating my thoughts on this matter very well. I just don't understand the Christianity version of forgiveness, I suppose. I'm assuming it stems from Jesus and how he forgave us? Loved us?

So Jesus did that for us, right? So, it seems to follow from that mindset that forgiveness is a gift of some sort to the one that "trespasses" -- this completely misses the point (I think) that forgiveness is something that is done to help heal the one that is hurt -- not the one that "sinned". Does that make sense? Am I lost?

:)

[_Inconceivable]

Once again, a little long:

23 Now, I speak unto you concerning your families—if men will smite you, or your families, once, and ye bear it patiently and revile not against them, neither seek revenge, ye shall be rewarded;
24 But if ye bear it not patiently, it shall be accounted unto you as being meted out as a just measure unto you.
25 And again, if your enemy shall smite you the second time, and you revile not against your enemy, and bear it patiently, your reward shall be an hundred fold.
26 And again, if he shall smite you the third time, and ye bear it patiently, your reward shall be doubled unto you four–fold;
27 And these three testimonies shall stand against your enemy if he repent not, and shall not be blotted out.
28 And now, verily I say unto you, if that enemy shall escape my vengeance, that he be not brought into judgment before me, then ye shall see to it that ye warn him in my name, that he come no more upon you, neither upon your family, even your children's children unto the third and fourth generation.
29 And then, if he shall come upon you or your children, or your children's children unto the third and fourth generation, I have delivered thine enemy into thine hands;
30 And then if thou wilt spare him, thou shalt be rewarded for thy righteousness; and also thy children and thy children's children unto the third and fourth generation.
31 Nevertheless, thine enemy is in thine hands; and if thou rewardest him according to his works thou art justified; if he has sought thy life, and thy life is endangered by him, thine enemy is in thine hands and thou art justified.32 Behold, this is the law I gave unto my servant Nephi, and thy fathers, Joseph, and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, and all mine ancient prophets and apostles.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 98:23 - 32)

So, forgiveness is conditional.

(off topic)
Interesting to note that in verse 28 that man can actually escape God's vengeance. Are the Mormon God's tools of vengeance particularly accurate?

Pardon the analogy, but does He work with the precision of a skilled sniper or a young boy with a bomb strapped to his back?

When the Mormon God goes a fishing, does he use a rod and real with proper bait to catch a specific fish or does he just toss in a stick of dynamite?

[_Moniker]

Ah! See, this is what I'm talking about! That it's pretty much a MUST that you forgive someone. So you do that to/for them? It makes it external, in a sense and doing it to avoid the wrath of God. Well, sure, I'll say I'll forgive you so that I don't get zapped by a lightning bolt sort of thing. Sheesh.... I don't get it! I must be missing something!

I sooo wish I had paid attention in Church!!!

[_Inconceivable]

Thanks, inconceivable.

I don't think I'm articulating my thoughts on this matter very well. I just don't understand the Christianity version of forgiveness, I suppose. I'm assuming it stems from Jesus and how he forgave us? Loved us?

So Jesus did that for us, right? So, it seems to follow from that mindset that forgiveness is a gift of some sort to the one that "trespasses" -- this completely misses the point (I think) that forgiveness is something that is done to help heal the one that is hurt -- not the one that "sinned". Does that make sense? Am I lost?

:)

Makes sense to me. I don't think you are particularly lost. I think it is both.