The Holy Ghost -- How Does This Work?

[_Roger Morrison]

Moniker, i don't know if i can do anything but add to your confusion? However, i'll offer my thoughts, such as they are:

The term HG is simply part of LDS jargon rooted in its very beginning by Joseph Smith and his followers to impress the masses with their divine-doings and sayings. In other denominations and sects the term "Holy Spirit" is used in place of the LDS choice.

It is one of the first things an investigator/convert assimilates in their Mormonizing process. Missionaries use it intensly to impress their contacts with their righteousness. "I know through the power of the HG... and You can to..." Generally speaking folks who give time to the Missionaries are easily persuaded because they are looking for something. And what nicer delivery men could there be than two fine young men expressing LUV!

I respectfully suggest what is generally referred to as the HG, is really the practical notion that something is right, or wrong, by inductive or deductive reasoning that requires some degree of intelligence. IOWs idiocy does not harbor intuition or reasoning. SO the HG is simply a nonsense term riding on the efforts and effects of the natural decision making process.

As religion sobers up and its vision clears the use of such archaic theological terms will be replaced with more appropriate and meaningful terms. As i see it. IF enlightenment depends on the HG, then in my observation it is working more in the secular world than in the religious one. Roger

[_cinepro]

This satirical article from The Sugar Beet illustrates a common LDS attitude towards the Holy Ghost:

LDS Church Patents Holy Ghost®
By Stephen Carter

SALT LAKE CITY—Surprising the entire Christian world, the LDS Church announced today that it has patented the Holy Ghost®. The Holy Ghost® will now be felt only in and around LDS services, authorized missionary encounters, and Mormon-sponsored television ads.

The Holy Ghost®, also known as the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, and the Paraclete, has been notoriously unpredictable in the past, coming upon people of all creeds in a variety of circumstances. Now the Holy Ghost® is where he belongs, say church officials.

“The Holy Ghost® and his influence clearly belong only in LDS Church–sponsored events, since this is God’s only true church,” said church spokesman Mark S. Walcott.

As the patent holder, Walcott said the church will insist on its proprietary ownership of the Holy Ghost® and will require any unlicensed users of the Holy Ghost® to register and pay a fee or else suffer litigation.

“However, we are giving all religions, both Christian and non-Christian, a six-month grace period wherein they can either license with us or discontinue use of the Holy Spirit completely,” Walcott said.

Much of the Christian world expressed outrage at the patent, and the Catholic Church is taking up the gauntlet. “If anyone deserves the patent on the Holy Ghost®, it is obviously the church that Christ himself set up through Peter,” said Marcus Barberra, head of legal affairs for the Vatican. “We will fight this patent in the American courts till the Second Coming, if needs be.”

LDS Church chief attorney M. David Scottsdale doesn’t think the Catholic Church’s appeals will hold up in court. “No offense,” said Scottsdale, “but their concept of the Holy Ghost® is, shall we say, an earlier version put together when mankind’s knowledge of heavenly things was decidedly incomplete. But with the update of modern revelation, we have the real McCoy. The Catholic Church’s version is clearly obsolete and ineffectual prior art.”

Some other LDS law practitioners have pointed out that since the Holy Ghost® is the ultimate testifier of truth, the Catholic Church will be hard pressed to find a better witness to back up their case. “And then if they do call on the Holy Ghost® to witness, well, they’ll have to license him first, which would prove that they believe him to be the true Spirit, backing up our case beautifully,” said Albert P. Hossman, a law professor at Brigham Young University.

To protect the patent, the LDS Church is already preparing investigative missionaries at its training center in Provo, Utah, to sniff out unlicensed usage of the Holy Ghost®. “It’s a simple job, really,” said Elder Andy Tutter, a budding investigative missionary. “We go to non-Mormon church meetings, and if we feel the Spirit we check for registration. If we can’t find any authentic credentials, we phone the piracy into Salt Lake City, and headquarters will immediately inform the offending church of its violation. If they continue to violate the patent, we’ll have no choice but to pursue legal action.”

United States Senator Orrin Hatch (R-UT), a member of the LDS Church, has suggested that the church think about installing a satellite-enhanced destruct-o-ray that can be used on offending churches all over the globe. “Boom! Pow! Kazap! Right in the kisser!” said the Senator. “Holy Ghost® piracy will be a thing of the past.”

The lighter side of an investigative missionary’s job is to allow non-Mormons to experience the Holy Ghost® on a trial basis. The potential user must officially register for the companionship of the Holy Ghost® before the evaluation period is up, or the Spirit will be automatically removed.

Members of the LDS Church shouldn’t notice any difference in the Holy Ghost® when the patent goes into effect, said church officials. “His presence will remain undiminished in fully-licensed LDS ward houses,” said Walcott. “Unless, of course, tithe payment drops below 75 percent in any ward occupying the meetinghouse.”

[_ajax18]

I can't really disagree with that conclusion Beastie, but the problem for me is that conclusion also brings up very difficult questions.

One question is the question of free will. I still tend to believe it exists. Have you concluded that our decisions are ultimately just the result of genetics and conditioning? Is there no intangible human factor? If so, what is it, if is not spiritual?

As a side note, I'm convinced that these Holy Ghost questions that you came across drive a lot of young people insane when they become missionaries. This fits with the brain chemistry you described. Did you ever go through that as a missionary? I can't think of more tormented and awful state for any soul, than the MTC. More than one returned missionary has confided with me that he has promised himself never to go back there. Maybe I just was too dumb to be bothered by the temple ceremony or that I was half asleep. Perhaps it was because I had my parents to prepare me for the things they new I might have a hard time swallowing. Maybe it was because I grew up in the Church, but I really wasn't at all traumatized by the temple experience. It seemed pretty mundane, granted it was 1994. My point being, the MTC was a lot more traumatic for me than the temple. The entire mission was traumatic for at least the first year.

[_Roger Morrison]

Thanks for the article Cinepro, a most amusing and entertaining expression of LDS egoism, too true, LOL The whole concept of a "Holy" anything, including a 'Ghost', 'Spirit' or 'Cow' displaces humans' ability to problem solve using their "God" given faculties that differentiate our species from other world inhabitors.

While defences and postulates of "Holy" are made by well intentioned "believers" in religious mythology and legend, they are as 'unsound brass & tinkling symbols' (1Cor13) intended to support an imaginary structure designed to placate those in such a state of need to escape reality, dependent on another sphere and realm of existance.

I respectfully suggest, there is NO other. This is IT. Tis here and now that YOUR Spirit really counts. Better it be wholesome than holy, IMSCO... Warm regards, Roger

[_Moniker]

I can't really disagree with that conclusion Beastie, but the problem for me is that conclusion also brings up very difficult questions.

One question is the question of free will. I still tend to believe it exists. Have you concluded that our decisions are ultimately just the result of genetics and conditioning? Is there no intangible human factor? If so, what is it, if is not spiritual?

As a side note, I'm convinced that these Holy Ghost questions that you came across drive a lot of young people insane when they become missionaries. This fits with the brain chemistry you described. Did you ever go through that as a missionary? I can't think of more tormented and awful state for any soul, than the MTC. More than one returned missionary has confided with me that he has promised himself never to go back there. Maybe I just was too dumb to be bothered by the temple ceremony or that I was half asleep. Perhaps it was because I had my parents to prepare me for the things they new I might have a hard time swallowing. Maybe it was because I grew up in the Church, but I really wasn't at all traumatized by the temple experience. It seemed pretty mundane, granted it was 1994. My point being, the MTC was a lot more traumatic for me than the temple. The entire mission was traumatic for at least the first year.

I've never read of anyone mentioning the Holy Ghost as causing distress during their missions. What do you mean by that, precisely?

[_ajax18]

I've never read of anyone mentioning the Holy Ghost as causing distress during their missions. What do you mean by that, precisely?

Yeah I'd say I'm in a minority among most RMs, but there have been talks by GAs on, "Saving the missionaries." I think the Church has noticed that RMs with feelings like mine are more than actually tell. You also get to ask forbidden questions that TBMs may ignore, but believe me they're counting and remembering that it was said, and it could cost you if perhaps you wind up deciding you do want to stay in the Church. The point being, every young missionary knows that if he has doubts, distress, or any other negative emotion, he has to hide this and project a happy, and peaceful face to the world. Even after you go home, you're judge on whether you spoke positively or negatively of your mission. So while some men may have actually experiencef joy, those of us that didn't had lots of reasons to at least try and fake it. They say you can't fake it, but my faking must have been more effective than they predicted. I'm not saying I necessarily fooled anyone, but as far as I saw Otherwise they wouldn't have been as shocked when I did reveal what I really thought.

Were you ever a full time missionary? Not all missionaries have the same experience. A lot depends on who your leaders are as to what your time will be like. Can you imagine Church 24/7, where Church is your break. My point being, what it comes down to is hard sales work, and boot camp like regimen, hierarchy, and methods of putting pressure on people. It's not just a buch a hippies out peacefully sharing ideas about religion. I agree, that would be much more spiritually uplifting than basically being a 24/7 salesman.

Church starts out for people often as just as a friendly discussion. You basically meet some real nice people, but as you get sunk deeper and deeper, it becomes an insatiable taskmaster with no more mercy than Uncle Tom himself. The Church seems to boil frogs just like they accuse the devil of doing.

[_ajax18]

I've never read of anyone mentioning the Holy Ghost as causing distress during their missions. What do you mean by that, precisely?

Yeah I'd say I'm in a minority among most RMs, but there have been talks by GAs on, "Saving the missionaries." I think the Church has noticed that RMs with feelings like mine are more than actually tell. You also get to ask forbidden questions that TBMs may ignore, but believe me they're counting and remembering that it was said, and it could cost you if perhaps you wind up deciding you do want to stay in the Church. The point being, every young missionary knows that if he has doubts, distress, or any other negative emotion, he has to hide this and project a happy, and peaceful face to the world. Even after you go home, you're judge on whether you spoke positively or negatively of your mission. So while some men may have actually experiencef joy, those of us that didn't had lots of reasons to at least try and fake it. They say you can't fake it, but my faking must have been more effective than they predicted. I'm not saying I necessarily fooled anyone, but as far as I saw Otherwise they wouldn't have been as shocked when I did reveal what I really thought.

Were you ever a full time missionary? Not all missionaries have the same experience. A lot depends on who your leaders are as to what your time will be like. Can you imagine Church 24/7, where Church is your break. My point being, what it comes down to is hard sales work, and boot camp like regimen, hierarchy, and methods of putting pressure on people. It's not just a buch a hippies out peacefully sharing ideas about religion. I agree, that would be much more spiritually uplifting than basically being a 24/7 salesman.

Church starts out for people often as just as a friendly discussion. You basically meet some real nice people, but as you get sunk deeper and deeper, it becomes an insatiable taskmaster with no more mercy than Uncle Tom himself. The Church seems to boil frogs just like they accuse the devil of doing.

[_beastie]

ajax,

I responded to the free will question on the abuse and power thread. I'll come back later to your question about my missionary experience.

[_Inconceivable]

"The gift of the Holy Ghost..

..Quickens all the intellectual faculties, increases,
enlarges, expands, and purifies all the natural
passions and affections; and adapts them, by the
gift of wisdom, to their lawful use.

It inspires, develops, cultivates and matures all the
fine-toned sympathies, joys, tastes, kindred feelings,
and affections of our nature.

It inspires virtue, kindness, goodness, tenderness,
gentleness, and charity.

It develops beauty of person, form and features. It
tends to health, vigor, animation, and social feeling.

It invigorates all the faculties of the physical and
intellectual man.

It strengthens, and gives tone to the nerves.

In short, it is, as it were, marrow to the bone, joy to
the heart, light to the eyes, music to the ears, and life
to the whole being"

- Parley P. Pratt (adulterer, wife stealer)

(Key to the Science of Theology, 9th ed. [1965], 101.)

[_Gazelam]

I think th epart here that is confusing for people is that the whole point of the Holy Ghost is to act as an instructor for us. He prompts, he directs, he helps us to make connections, and the idea is the same as that of a teacher. To get us to the point where we can stand on our own.

What good is a man if he is in need of constant prodding?

Of coarse He is a constant companion. Much the same way a teacher in a classroom is always there. But we are supposed to be doing our own work, with the teacher encouraging us and prompting us to rememebr what we've studied.

Does this lead to some confusion as we struggle to stand on our young spiritual legs, like baby deer trying to gain their footing? Sure. But at least we know we are in the right schoolroom, and that we have the correct textbooks.

It does not take much digging through religious writings, or much prayer, to understand and know that this is in fact Gods church, and that we are able to trust in these prophets that he has given us in these latter-days. The Holy Ghost does know all things, and as we draw closer to God, he shares this knowledge with us. That being said, it does not mean that a pure and innocent 8 year old who is frsh out of the water and coming out of the building after receiving the Gift of The Holy Ghost is going to be able to assemble her fathers carburetor to his 69 Camero.

But that child is filled with a knowledge of proper conduct and behavior. That is ultimately what we are really after.