Warren Jeffs' compound

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_Pokatator
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Post by _Pokatator »

Coggins7 wrote:How can the LDS Church have rejected the mysteries when it is precisely the FLDS who have consciously rejected them? They have no Temple ceremonies, nor does the Church of Jesus Christ, another apostate branch. It would seem to me that the one's who do not have the mysteries and who are consciously aware that they do not would not be the one's to try to point this out to the organization from which they came which has preserved them.

But this is all moot. The FLDS do not have the Gift of the Holy Ghost. They have no Priesthood, and know authority. Do I need to make long doctrinal or philosophical arguments in support of this claim? No. The spiritual manifestations to the Saints at the time who were in tune with the Spirit and living their religion were clear and unambiguous as to he upon whom the mantle fell upon Joseph's death. And what else? The FLDS are not LDS; they are not Mormons, and they never were. Their members have no more membership in the LDS Church or connection to it than the average Mississippi southern Baptist, except one: at some point in the past, someone who was, at one point, a Mormon, began a sect that was, in some senses, based upon a selection of doctrines and practices accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In this sense, the fundamentalist cults have a historical connection to the Church. However, these folks are still nonmembers of the Church. they are not part of the Kingdom. If their leaders or originators were members, they have been excommunicated, and an excommunicated member is as if he had never been a member at all.



Can we a least agree that both sides have a burning in the bosom?
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Anyone who thinks that the offshoots of the Utahn branch of the church do NOT teach about the witness of the HG, and do NOT "feel" the same sort of things LDS feel ought to listen to polygamist Anne's talk, which includes her testimony at the end, at mormonstories.

http://mormonstories.org/?p=199
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

beastie wrote:Anyone who thinks that the offshoots of the Utahn branch of the church do NOT teach about the witness of the HG, and do NOT "feel" the same sort of things LDS feel ought to listen to polygamist Anne's talk, which includes her testimony at the end, at mormonstories.

http://mormonstories.org/?p=199


The whole thing rests on the definition of authority. Warren Jeffs supposedly can trace his authority back to Joseph Smith. So does Thomas Monson. Equal authority. The difference is that Jeffs' group doesn't acknowledge the action taken in 1890, while the Monson group does.

Same roots, same heritage, same authority.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Neither do the LDS, Loran. LDS can't even produce a decent revelation restoring the Melch priesthood. And the timing was all wrong. Joseph organized the church with only the Aaronic priesthood, If I recall correctly, and because his priesthood didn't cover anything remotely like that, he overstepped his authority.



No, the only one who has any authority is Harmony. We sit at your feet, as wisdom flows from your lips and knolwdge distills upon us like the dews of heaven. Cacophonously funny Harmony, really.

I really don't know, at this point, if you are simply ignorant, and like many ignorant people, hate what you do not understand, or whether you are as saturated with guile as you seem.


Again, as the above shows clearly, your knowledge of LDS doctrine is utterly primitive.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Coggins7 wrote:
Neither do the LDS, Loran. LDS can't even produce a decent revelation restoring the Melch priesthood. And the timing was all wrong. Joseph organized the church with only the Aaronic priesthood, If I recall correctly, and because his priesthood didn't cover anything remotely like that, he overstepped his authority.



No, the only one who has any authority is Harmony. We sit at your feet, as wisdom flows from your lips and knolwdge distills upon us like the dews of heaven. Cacophonously funny Harmony, really.

I really don't know, at this point, if you are simply ignorant, and like many ignorant people, hate what you do not understand, or whether you are as saturated with guile as you seem.


Again, as the above shows clearly, your knowledge of LDS doctrine is utterly primitive.


Rather than attacking Harmony with a lot of empty ad hom's, why not try making a substantial argument based on substance? In what way is her knowledge of LDS doctrine "utterly primitive"? Point to the scriptures and reference where Joseph organized utilizing the Melchizedek Priesthood.
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

So what is up with a bed in the FLDS Temple?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

moksha wrote:So what is up with a bed in the FLDS Temple?


This thread goes into more details on this issue:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... php?t=5841
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Texas Authorities Defend Handling of Polygamist Sect
Thursday , April 10, 2008



ADVERTISEMENTSAN ANGELO, Texas —

It was no secret that a polygamist sect that built a compound in the West Texas desert believed in marrying off underage girls to older men. And the sheriff had an informant for four years who was feeding him information about life inside the sect.

But authorities say their hands were tied until last week, when they finally obtained the legal grounds to move against the group.

The trigger for the raid was a hushed phone call from a terrified 16-year-old girl to a family-violence shelter to report that her 50-year-old husband had beaten and raped her. State troopers put into action the plan they had on the shelf to enter the 1,700-acre compound, and 416 children, most of them girls, were swept into state custody because of suspicions that they were being sexually and physically abused.

On Thursday, state and local law enforcement authorities defended their decision to leave the sect alone for four years after it moved in.

"We are aware that this group is capable of" sexually abusing girls, Sheriff David Doran said. "But there again, this is the United States. We are going to respect them. We're not going to violate their civil rights until we get an outcry."

Doran said it was not until after the raid began that he learned that the sect was, in fact, marrying off underage girls at the compound and had a bed in its soaring limestone temple where the girls were required to immediately consummate their marriages. Also, investigators say a number of teenage girls there are pregnant.

Authorities in Texas suspected there would be trouble ever since members of the renegade Mormon splinter group — the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints — bought an exotic game ranch in Eldorado in 2004 and began building the ranch.

Warren Jeffs, the sect's prophet and spiritual leader at its longtime headquarters in the dusty, side-by-side towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., was charged in 2005 and 2006 with forcing underage girls into marriages there. He was convicted in September in Utah of being an accomplice to rape and is serving up to life in prison.

Doran had been making occasional visits to the Eldorado compound — he even called to tell members of Jeffs' capture in 2006 — but he said he saw nothing to warrant a criminal investigation. Most of those milling around the compound would scatter when he and a Texas Ranger visited, he said.

"You can only press someone so far without having a criminal investigation going on," the sheriff said. "This group doesn't openly talk and they do not openly answer questions."

Doran said he had an informant who was "instrumental in teaching me the group's ways." But he declined to say whether the informant, a former sect member, was in Texas, or Utah or Arizona.

Barry Caver, a Texas Ranger who sometimes went with Doran to the compound, said a general welfare check wouldn't have produced much. "They would allow us on the property to the extent that we could talk to the main three or four people" only, Caver said.

Texas Attorney General Gregg Abbott said that despite other states' investigations into Jeffs and FLDS, Texas authorities had to wait until they had evidence of wrongdoing in this state to act. He said authorities handled the case properly.

"You cannot go in and bust in someone's house if there's not probable cause to do so," Abbott said.

Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University law professor who has written about polygamy, said even Jeffs' conviction was not enough to barge in on the sect in Eldorado.

"You cannot use stale evidence," Turley said. "They would need a contemporary statement or evidence at trial that an individual at the compound is practicing polygamy."

The man alleged to be the 16-year-old girl's husband, Dale Barlow, is a registered sex offender who pleaded no contest to having sex with a minor in Arizona.

"I do not know this girl that they keep asking about," he told Utah's Deseret Morning News on Wednesday. "And I have not been to Texas since I was a young man back in 1977."

Officials still have not identified the 16-year-old girl among the children and the 139 women being held at two sites in Texas.

"When you're dealing with a culture like this, they're taught from very early on that they don't answer questions to the point," Doran said. "All of that is certainly being sorted out right now."

We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_ktallamigo
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Post by _ktallamigo »

This whole FLDS business gives me the creeps. I've been reading the personal stories told to journalists by women who have been able to escape. And it sort of reminds me of "Wife No. 19" by Ann Eliza Webb. Correct me if I'm wrong, but she mysteriously disappeared, did she not?

And the feeling I get from all this is that the FLDS Church is what mainstream Mormonism would be today, if it had not been forced by law and the influx of non-Mormons into Utah, to morph, change with the times, abandon repugnant doctrines like blood atonement and become more acceptable to American society.

The FLDS is much more the church of Joseph and Brigham than the version we see today.

The outrage we all feel today towards the practices of the FLDS is how Americans felt towards Mormons in the latter half of the nineteenth century.

A few things haven't changed: Follow the prophet, obedience, the role of women primarily as wives and mothers, not to be "of the world" (although we can be "in" the world, unlike the FLDS), not questioning church leaders even when they are wrong, rules regulating personal behavior and dress, tithing, etc.

ktall
"Brigham said the day would come when thousands would be made Eunuchs in order for them to be saved in the kingdom of God." (Wilford Woodruff's Diary, June 2, 1857, Vol. 5, pages 54-55)
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Rather than attacking Harmony with a lot of empty ad hom's, why not try making a substantial argument based on substance? In what way is her knowledge of LDS doctrine "utterly primitive"? Point to the scriptures and reference where Joseph organized utilizing the Melchizedek Priesthood.



Because, Liz, substantial argument with Harmony is useless. She has never been here to engage in it herself or accept it from others. All the apologists here, and at ZLMB have tried, and all have failed.

On what basis do you think Joseph didn't have the Melchizedek Priesthood? Documentary historical sources would seem to imply otherwise. Let's look at the FAIR Wiki overview of the subject:

Similar to this origination complication of baptism and membership, the ordination to the office of Elder via the higher priesthood could not occur until the church had been established. After the church was officially established we have the following evidences that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery had already received the higher priesthood:

1. Aug 1830, the Lord spoke to the Prophet Joseph Smith of “Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them.” D&C 27:12
2. Apr 1830, “And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand.” D&C 20:2-3
3. “Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery sought after this higher authority, and the Lord gave it to them, before the rise of this Church, sending to them Peter, James and John. What for? To bestow upon them the Apostleship.” -Elder Parley P. Pratt [4]
4. Hiram Page, a son-in-law of Peter Whitmer Sr., and one who was present on the day of the Church’s 6 April 1830 organization, later confirmed that “Peter, James and John” had come and bestowed the Holy Priesthood “before the 6th of April 1830.” [5]
5. “I know that Joseph received his Apostleship from Peter, James, and John, before a revelation on the subject was printed, and he never had a right to organize a Church before he was an Apostle.” -Brigham Young [6]

[b]Narrow Window

Knowing that the prophet already had the Melchizedek priesthood prior to the organization of the church we can look at the following clues of the May 15 to 30, 1829 ordination window in order of progressively narrowed parameters:

1. Year 1829: There is a manuscript in Oliver Cowdery’s handwriting recording part of D&C 18: saying, “Written in the year of our Lord & Saviour 1829.” [7]
2. June 1829: In D&C 18:9 we read “And now, Oliver Cowdery, I speak unto you, and also unto David Whitmer, by the way of commandment; for, behold, I command all men everywhere to repent, and I speak unto you, even as unto Paul mine apostle, for you are called even with that same calling with which he was called.”
3. Before June 14, 1829: Oliver Cowdery wrote a letter to Hyrum Smith. The letter has some wording that quotes and refers to section 18 in the D&C. [8]
4. Before June 1, 1829:
* Joseph Smith said that he, Emma, Oliver and David Whitmer traveled to the home of Peter Whitmer Sr. “In the beginning of the month of June.” [9]
* David Whitmer is quoted as saying “The translation at my father’s farm, Fayette Township, Seneca County, New York occupied about one month, that is from June 1, to July 1, 1829.” [10] If those dates are exact then the Prophet was in New York during the entire month of June.
* Orson Pratt asked David Whitmer, “Can you tell the date of the bestowal of the Apostleship upon Joseph, by Peter, James and John?” To which he replied: “I do not know, Joseph never told me.” From this we can tell that the visitation either:
1. Happened during the traveling when Joseph and Oliver were away from David and did not tell him about the occurrence (their trusted friend with whom they shared many other events).
2. Happened at another time than their travel from Harmony to Fayette.


As shown above, after receiving the priesthood they were not yet allowed to ordain each other to the offices within that priesthood. They were told to “defer this our ordination until such times as it should be practicable to have our brethren, who had been and who should be baptized, assembled together, when we must have their sanction to our proceeding to ordain each other.” [13]

There are many times when Oliver confirmed without error that the sequence of events occurred as shown above. [14] [15]
Conclusion

All doubts about this question are washed away when the whole collection of documented evidence surrounding the restoration of the Melchizedek priesthood is seen. Although the exact date is not known, the window that is known is small enough to preclude a later fabrication of events by the Prophet to "increase his authority."


But why even quibble about such things Liz? Harmony doesn't believe in any such concept as the Melchizidek Priesthood in the first instance, so augments and evidence such as the above, which would require at the very minimum an assumption of some benefit of the doubt toward the concept, and toward Joseph as a true Prophet of the Lord, an idea which we also know Harmony does not subscribe to, are nothing but filler.

Harmony is here to project her personal neurosis, unresolved life issues, and feminist derived notions of power struggle between the sexes onto the Church and its defenders, not to endure 'substantial argument".
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
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