Ack! Tarski Banned At MAD!

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_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Tarski wrote:
Moniker wrote:
Tarski wrote:Even if you were right against all odds, it would be the sheerest of luck since the current situation does not warrant that belief. In the same way, that hopeful dentist might be right and the 100 cancer experts wrong but until something changes I would not be justified in believing the dentist over the oncologists. That would be true even if it was one oncologist against the rest.


Tarski.... you don't have cancer, do you? I so hope not, and hope this was just a way to illustrate your point.


No, I am just making a point as you say. Sorry for the confusion.


No problem. I can stop fretting now. :)
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Moniker wrote:
wenglund wrote:I noticed on page 2 that Tarski was reinstated, and I have looked through the rest of the thread (all 5 pages) to see if there were any apologies from participants on the first page or so for having rushed to rash judgement much like what the MA&D mods were being accused.

Should I be surprised that I didn't find a single one, but aside from a few expressions of gratitude to the mods, and some off-topic banter with my buddy Coggins, its as though some here bearly broke stride in seemingly relentless heaping of scorn on the MA&D mods?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Excuse me? A mod banned Tarski and then he was unbanned. How was there a rush to judgment? I was concerned as to why precisely he was banned and asked why that was so. Later I said I was thankful he was unbanned. Is that more like accessing the situation and commenting on it rather than making judgment calls on the mods? I'd think so.

What should there be an apology for? Should I apologize for noticing that Tarski was banned? Or should I apologize for my questions as to why he was banned? Or should I apologize for my "Thank goodness" post when I mentioned that Tarski was reinstated? Or is it the part where I questioned why MAD would ban a very intelligent, insightful critic? Should I apologize for my posts in which I stated why I don't post there anymore (which had nothing whatsoever to do with mods)? Should I apologize for pointing out to Coggins why I felt it was a poor decision to ban Tarski?

Which post of mine would you desire an apology for?


Were I to have specifically accused you, then your hysterical reaction may have been warranted. I didn't, and so it wasn't. But, you are excused.

Here is what I had in mind:

"Whoever Orpheus is, he/she is 1 ) an asshole, and 2 ) really obsessed with micromanaging that thread for some reason. I mean seriously, with all the crap threads that go on on that board, it's like Orpheus is sitting there with some moderator intervention on seemingly every single freaking post. It's really insane."

"It's pretty sad they don't appreciate someone that managed to accrue over 5,000+ posts."

"No, they just want to sit around in a gigantic circle-jerk of self-congratulatory, single-minded narcissism. Won't be too long now; they just have to remove that "negative element" from their ranks. I guess being banned is better than being gutted by the likes of Orrin Porter Rockwell. I wouldn't know about being banned, though. I left voluntarily after the thread in which holy TBMs were defending the blaming victims of child abuse for the part they played in what happened to them."

I hope this helps.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

wenglund wrote:
Moniker wrote:
wenglund wrote:I noticed on page 2 that Tarski was reinstated, and I have looked through the rest of the thread (all 5 pages) to see if there were any apologies from participants on the first page or so for having rushed to rash judgement much like what the MA&D mods were being accused.

Should I be surprised that I didn't find a single one, but aside from a few expressions of gratitude to the mods, and some off-topic banter with my buddy Coggins, its as though some here bearly broke stride in seemingly relentless heaping of scorn on the MA&D mods?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Excuse me? A mod banned Tarski and then he was unbanned. How was there a rush to judgment? I was concerned as to why precisely he was banned and asked why that was so. Later I said I was thankful he was unbanned. Is that more like accessing the situation and commenting on it rather than making judgment calls on the mods? I'd think so.

What should there be an apology for? Should I apologize for noticing that Tarski was banned? Or should I apologize for my questions as to why he was banned? Or should I apologize for my "Thank goodness" post when I mentioned that Tarski was reinstated? Or is it the part where I questioned why MAD would ban a very intelligent, insightful critic? Should I apologize for my posts in which I stated why I don't post there anymore (which had nothing whatsoever to do with mods)? Should I apologize for pointing out to Coggins why I felt it was a poor decision to ban Tarski?

Which post of mine would you desire an apology for?


Were I to have specifically accused you, then your hysterical reaction may have been warranted. I didn't, and so it wasn't.


You've never seen me post in the midst of hysteria and I'm fairly certain you never shall. :)

I saw this in your post and replied accordingly:

Should I be surprised that I didn't find a single one, but aside from a few expressions of gratitude to the mods, and some off-topic banter with my buddy Coggins, its as though some here bearly broke stride in seemingly relentless heaping of scorn on the MA&D mods?



I saw very little of the "relentless heaping of scorn on the MA&D mods", as you mention. I replied since I have a great deal of posts in this thread, perhaps more than any others?

Perhaps if one wishes to be understood and communicate effectively there should be replies made to individual posters to lessen the likelihood of confusion?
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Moniker wrote:Perhaps if one wishes to be understood and communicate effectively there should be replies made to individual posters to lessen the likelihood of confusion?


I suppose hysterics is in the eye of the beholder.

Certainly, though, in cases where a given poster mistakenly (paranoicly?) assumes the generic word "some" necessarily applies to her, such communicative tools as you suggest may be helpful in limiting the chances of her mistakenly jumping to that false conclusion.

Those of us not inclined to rashly jumping to those kinds of false conclusion, though, will tend to ask the author in cases of uncertainty (something along the lines of "are you referring to me?")--thinking that it would take far less time for us to ask and have answered that simple y/n question rather than forcing the author each time to make specific mention and comments to each of the people he included in the "some".

To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

My god, Wade, what would we do without you to instruct us on good behavior? And the fact that you lead by example is particularly motivating.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

wenglund wrote:
Moniker wrote:Perhaps if one wishes to be understood and communicate effectively there should be replies made to individual posters to lessen the likelihood of confusion?


I suppose hysterics is in the eye of the beholder.


Perhaps it is? Yet, I can assure you I merely sipped on my drink, read your reply and typed up a response with my usual demeanor, I was listening to some rather soothing classical music, as well. Not feeling riled in the least. I was actually more relieved to read that Tarski was well then concerned about anything you had written, Wade.
Certainly, though, in cases where a given poster mistakenly (paranoicly?) assumes the generic word "some" necessarily applies to her, such communicative tools as you suggest may be helpful in limiting the chances of her mistakenly jumping to that false conclusion.


Can you look at your words, please?

I noticed on page 2 that Tarski was reinstated, and I have looked through the rest of the thread (all 5 pages) to see if there were any apologies from participants on the first page or so for having rushed to rash judgement much like what the MA&D mods were being accused.


I was a participant on the first page. I had more posts on the first page than any other poster. I had 9, in fact. So, in light of you specifically mentioning the "participants on the first page or so" I understood I fit that definition. More so than merely a participant, I was the most active participant.

Perhaps you should reacquaint yourself with the thread and grasp what you type before you do so if you don't intend to deal with replies from the participant that was most vocal on page 1 of this thread? :)
Those of us not inclined to rashly jumping to those kinds of false conclusion, though, will tend to ask the author in cases of uncertainty (something along the lines of "are you referring to me?")--thinking that it would take far less time for us to ask and have answered that simple y/n question rather than forcing the author each time to make specific mention and comments to each of the people he included in the "some".


Well, Wade, I didn't jump to false conclusions. You specifically mentioned participants on page one of this thread and apparently questioned why there were no apologies about a rush to judgment. Considering I was the most active on page one of this thread I wanted to know what precisely you would have me apologize for.

I'm not feeling hysterical, in the least and find it odd you read my words in that way. I am reading quite a bit of hostility in your words lately. Perhaps it is in the eye of the beholder, after all?
_Tarski
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Post by _Tarski »

bcspace wrote:
I dunno Tarski. That in and of itself is a left wing talking point.

Its just a fact. Do you deny it?


I do not deny that you just used a left wing talking point.

I am not really on the left as much as in the center but if facts are talking points of the left, then score one for the left I guess.


I've never found left wingers to be very educated or erudite in any cogent sense. One can have a lot of facts at one's disposal and yet lack the sense to put them together.

Hmmm. So Harvard, MIT, Berkeley, UCLA, Princeton and Stanford are mostly uneducated and not erudie? I thought the universities were supposed to be full of liberals?

What do you call someone who has all the facts of evolutionary biology and geology at their disposal and ends up still thinking that there was a talking snake in garden of no death in Jackson county Missouri where the first man lived? I call them a person who has lots of facts at their disposal and yet lacks the sense to put them together".
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Alright. Leftism can mean many things, political liberalism, social liberalism, economic liberalism, etc. Socialism is very focused on economic liberalism, and through the seizure of economic power political liberalism. Your statement does not leave any leeway for people who might be politically liberal and yet want to maintain economic inequality (such as our Founding Fathers...a bunch of rich white men who didn't want to pay taxes.) Thus your statement is wrong. People can be leftists without being socialists.



I assume, in the first instance, that by "Liberalism" you mean "Liberalism" in the modern, post WWII meaning of the term, which is, in essence...Leftism. If this is the case, then I would say the following:

I do not believe that economic liberalism and social liberalism can be effectively extracted and separated from one another in either a theoretical or practical manner (I'm not sure about what you term "political liberalism", as it would seem that "political liberalism" would encompass the other two, politics having to do more broadly with the structure and organization of society as a whole). Social liberalism requires statism and a collectivizing coerciveness within the apparatus of the state to achieve most of its goals (homosexual marriage, outcome based education, etc.). At the same time, economic liberalism (usually some form of Marxian or Marx influenced socialism) implies and must impose a collectivist mentality and social frame of reference among the population such that the collectivizing of economic life (as this effects all other aspects of social life) can proceed without being encumbered by resistance generated by institutions and attitudes inimical to that collectivist mentality (the family, religion, etc.). Social liberalism then (the sexual revolution, radical feminism, the post King civil rights movement, the Gay rights movement, outcome based education, the assault in the public schools on competition and competitive sports, the denigration of excellence, achievement, and of "standing out" from the crowd; reductionistic, medicalized explanations for criminality, addiction, and other forms forms of anti-social behavior, the continuing war on boys, men, and masculinity (another long standing project of radical feminism), moral and value relativism etc.) cultivates the attitudes and value shifts necessary for economic liberalism, or, in other words, economic liberalism requires social liberalism to remove the moral, ethical, and psychological barriers among a critical mass of a people to a highly controlled, delimited, collectivist economic system. And since the control of economic life is, in essence, the control of all other aspects of life, "social" leftism appears as simply a necessary appendage to the means used by any political class or social movement seeking to impose a socialistic economic order, which is to say, a socialist social order.

"Political" leftism is simply a catch-all term that encompasses both economics and socio-cultural issues.

Socialism is very focused on economic liberalism, and through the seizure of economic power



The most effective of all the socialist movements of the 20the century, Cultural Marxism, sees socialism as a concept comprehending all of human life and activity, including media, art, music, and all forms of "cultural production". One cannot socialize a society economically without socializing that society qua the society. Marx knew this just as well as his later Frankfurt School disciples. The idea of the base and the superstructure; that all cultural artifacts and productions: music, art, literature, philosophy, religion, and values, are nothing but props for class interests grounded in economic relations between those classes is a case in point. Economic socialization must affect all other aspects of a society, and without altering those aspects, economic socialism will encounter strong resistance from traditional value structures embedded within the natural buffers against the state, primarily the family, church, and other private, voluntary organizations existing at a grass roots level.

Your statement does not leave any leeway for people who might be politically liberal and yet want to maintain economic inequality (such as our Founding Fathers...a bunch of rich white men who didn't want to pay taxes.) Thus your statement is wrong. People can be leftists without being socialists.


You appear to be engaging in some very gross equivocation of terms here, which will make further discussion difficult. In your first paragraph, you equate Socialism with something you call political "liberalism". Now here, you mention something called political "liberalism" and attach it to the Founders. But the founders were classical liberals, not "liberals" in the modern sense, and their political philosophy was, and is, the antithesis of Leftism. Which is which?

Further, all the Founders had to do to "maintain economic equality" was to create a government and constitution who's primary function was to protect and preserve liberty. Economic liberty under a rule of law will inevitably produce economic inequality. That is to say, freedom allows the natural distinctions in ability and aptitude among human beings to manifest themselves more fully and in greater profusion and variety.

Hence, the Founders didn't "maintain economic inequality" at all. They allowed freedom, property rights, and forbade direct taxation of individuals. In such a system, a vast number of levels of economic achievement will be manifest. They didn't "do" anything at all.
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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Its just a fact. Do you deny it?



Its also utterly irrelevant, as the sources for my views on AGW are distinguished experts in the climate science field who do not happen to share either the endless streams of government grant money that flows unendingly to researches who's research provides politicians and government bureaucracies with the kind of science they are looking for, i.e., science with policy ramifications, or the background ideological motivations of many in the AGW movement.


I find your continued attempt to shut down critical debate by claiming access to arcane, gnostic knowledge beyond the ken of a non-scientist--while first rate climate scientists, skeptical of AGW hysteria, write books, monographs, and magazine articles for the general reader articulating and explaining in clear terms the basic nature of the science and what the data may or may not mean, to be, for all intents and purposes, another in a long series of your white flags.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I am not really on the left as much as in the center but if facts are talking points of the left, then score one for the left I guess. LOL



This is the classic, textbook cop out of the leftist who knows leftism is a dirty word and doesn't want his mouth washed out with soap.

The "center"?

Please, please spare me Tarski...
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
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