Why the church should open its archives (not what you think)

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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

BC is right, the Hinckster could have said almost anything to the media. It may have upset some folks, but it didn't change the doctrine. Essentially, what you have in Hinckley's waffling on eternal progression is a kind of wimpy dodge. Pretty damn disappointing, no doubt.



Actually, what we have President Hinckley doing here is:

1. Refraining from casting pearls before swine and

2. Refusing to get embroiled in a profoundly deep philosophical and theological subject with a secular liberal journalist with a long standing history of "gotcha" journalism and part of a media culture implacably hostile to traditional Judeo/Christian theological concepts of any kind, even one's as non-mainstream as those taught in the Church. This doctrine, while most certainly true and a part of the Gospel as taught, in not as yet cannon or "official" church doctrine, and it is only understood in a very rudimentary form. Its details and full implications remain to be revealed.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

1.) An overwhelming avalanche of evidence from disciplines as diverse as linguistics, anthropology, geography, zoology, botany, metallurgy, ethnology, and most importantly, molecular biology, has exploded virtually every single Book of Mormon claim about the indigenous peoples of America. And...what? Most Mormons don't care. Like certain MD posters, they simply find mental "outs", privately re-define key words, retroactively change 160 years worth of LDS doctrine, and voila! - no problem;



Pure posturing bloviation. These disciplines have done nothing of the kind, except in Tal's overactive imagination. Mesoamerican Archeology is far too young a discipline, and too much a data poor and theory rich discipline to make any final or certain statements about the Book of Mormon. The DNA flap is long dead and buried, and we know, of course, that molecular biology, at its present state of development at least, can tell us utterly nothing about the genetic make up of Book of Mormon peoples and there possible genetic connection to Amerindians (most of which, let it be said yet again, never survived the European's smallpox to be tested).

This kind of gobbledigook--throwing a plethora of academic disciplines together in an academic name dropping exercise, and then making authoritative sounding pronouncements about them is something anyone can do. Tal's problem, as always, begins when we begin discussing the details.


2.) Same with the Book of Breathings scrolls. Does the fact that Smith's "translation" have no relationship to the source text matter to devout Mormons? No.


Too bad there's no plausible reason to believe that the materials we have are the materials from which Joseph made his translation isn't it?


4.) Same with doctrines like evolution. LDS doctrine could not be clearer on this. It has been announced in an official First Presidency statement which declares itself to reveal "eternal truth"; it is in LDS scriptures; it is reiterated in the LDS Bible dictionary. Yet a few mind games, a bit of selective blindness and amnesia, are all that's needed for this to be no problem whatsoever for devout Mormons.


The Church has never had any official position on evolution. What on earth are you talking about? Or, is it the case that, as you say about faithful Latter Day Saints, you just don't care?


5.) The list goes on forever - Smith didn't use any plates for the translation? No problem. He stared into a stone and dictated? No problem. He was charged with fraud ("disorderly conduct")? No problem. He tried to get rid of all those "Books of Commandments" and re-wrote some of his "prophecies" in the subsequent edition ("D&C")? No problem. The sun doesn't draw its light from a star called Kolob? No problem. DNA evidence refutes Smith's claims? No problem. He deflowered a bewildered 14 year old? No problem. He changed his "first vision" story fundamentally over the years? NO PROBLEM.


One day you may actually become interested in serious, sustained, critical analysis and discussion, as opposed to the Deckeresque demagoguery and scattergun pseudo-philosophizing you engage in now (the very idea Tal, that you're really interested in evidence, logic, and facts is a little hard to swallow without a chaser. When will we actually see some evidence of this?).
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_ludwigm
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Post by _ludwigm »

wenglund wrote:...
millions of sincere people have joined the Church and continued in good faith, and believe that they have received sufficient information upon which to base and grow their testimonies as to the truth and authority of the Church's claims, and do not view the Church as man-made;
...
Thanks, -Wade Englund-


As far as I know (I hate blog/email slang) half of the membership live in US, the other half in outside of it.
In the US the rate of active members is about 50% (it is less than that but I want to be liberal). In other countries it is about 20-25%.
In summary, the inactives - sorry, the proper official expression is the less actives - are 60% of the membership in the better case and 70% in the worse.
They, the two third of the official membership
- don't continue in good faith
- don't make grown their testimonies (if they had any)
- have received sufficient information upon which they actually have leaved
- they view this church as man-made or fraud or pick any negative adjective
Anyway, the majority have leaved.

Yes, the remaining one third make millions. So what? Moslims are more than a milliard (billion for that millions who don't know where is the "bi" come from). Does become the islam the onlytrueoftheworld based on this number?

Please choose better argument. This one has proved the opposite You have planned.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_ludwigm
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Post by _ludwigm »

Inconceivable wrote:...
(Re)opening the archives would be akin to the iron curtain falling. It would mean that those on the outside wouldn't be the only ones that saw it for what it was. Those on the inside would become painfully aware of the long forgotten words of the prophets and their feet of iron and clay. Some would jump for joy, some would jump out of buildings. Uncertainty does strange things to us.

There are many parallels worth musing over.
...


May I cite one parallel?

It was Hungary which started to disassemble the iron curtain. We have let people of East (socialist) Germany to go to Austria, from where they went to West Germany. They were simple tourists in Hungary. Our Prime Minister personally has cut the barbed wire.
About that time, one of our leading politicians revealed that "the events in 1956" (the official wording) was revolution, not counter-move with weapon.
Well, it may be peripheral for You. Many of You don't know this part of history. Or don't care.
Many of You don't know that a little after this
- Hungary ceased to be a Socialist Republic of People and became (simply) Republic
- Germany was reunited
- Soviet Union? Socialist countries in general? Should I go into details?

Many times I have drawn parallels between socialism and The Church. I know both of them. They are similar. Not the principles, not the "truths" but the structure, the way of working, the behaviour of the leadership.
The problems in socialism was inextricable. We have seen the only way to solve them.

Interestingly, in the socialism there were good principles, I dare say there was many. If we poked enuogh, we can find good principles in the islam. There is a hungarian saying : One swallow doesn't make summer.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

No one should take coggins seriously as far as an observer of LDS changes. For heaven's sake, he was oblivious to a major temple change made within his own lifetime.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_solomarineris
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Post by _solomarineris »

[quote="The Nehor
Also, I will state this unequivocally. If the Church declares eternal progression to be an incorrect doctrine or declares that the Book of Mormon is fictional, I'm walking.[/quote]

I'm not sorry to tell you, Nehor that it takes a gullible person to swallow al this stuff.
Hinkley practically renounced & denied the most basic tenets of Mormon doctrine
in every interview & chance he got with mainstream media.
The time is not very far that our good 'ol Professor's last interview will be prophetic;
"(By now) the genetics in alot of areas is gone"..
This is how the church systematically deconstructs the foundations it was built upon.
Today "genetics' "God being man" "polygamy" repudiated, tomorrow there will be others,
the ones that doesn't conform mainstream christianity.
_LifeOnaPlate
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Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Tal Bachman wrote:---Life

Can I ask you a serious question? All ribbing and towel-snapping aside?

Would you care if Mormonism were a fraud? If Smith actually invented his stories about plates and sword-wielding angels and all the rest of it...would you leave Mormonism? Would you tell your kids? Would you tell your wife?

Would you care? What would you do?


Yes, Tal, I would care. I would leave Mormonism. I don't have kids. I would, of course, talk to my wife about it, yes. I would leave the Church. I hope I would not become so blinded as to miss that much good comes from the Church despite any truth claims. I hope I wouldn't spend my time attacking the faith of others. I would find something better to become involved with. Organizations who deal with third world countries, language programs, school funds, etc. etc. Life would be much too short for me to let Mormonism distract me from much, much weightier issues.

I can't really say what I'd do, ultimately, though. Who knows what the future would bring and what decisions we would each make? It's interesting to speculate, but that's about it.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:Yes, Tal, I would care. I would leave Mormonism. I don't have kids. I would, of course, talk to my wife about it, yes. I would leave the Church. I hope I would not become so blinded as to miss that much good comes from the Church despite any truth claims. I hope I wouldn't spend my time attacking the faith of others. I would find something better to become involved with. Organizations who deal with third world countries, language programs, school funds, etc. etc. Life would be much too short for me to let Mormonism distract me from much, much weightier issues.

I can't really say what I'd do, ultimately, though. Who knows what the future would bring and what decisions we would each make? It's interesting to speculate, but that's about it.


Do you really think its that easy?

What if your family, for generations, has been members, faithful tithe-paying members, called to leadership positions, even the highest leadership positions. Family that would be very upset, very upset, confused, angry and hurt that you'd turn your back on something your ancestors sacrificed so much for. Family so deeply embedded in the church that extracting them would be impossible. Where the family culture is defined by the boundaries, expectations, and policies of the LDS church. Where your marriage depends on your membership. Where your relationship with your children depends on your membership. Where your relationship with your parents and your siblings depends on your membership.

What then?
_LifeOnaPlate
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Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

harmony wrote:Do you really think its that easy?


As I stated, it's difficult to say what I would do.

What if your family, for generations, has been members, faithful tithe-paying members, called to leadership positions, even the highest leadership positions. Family that would be very upset, very upset, confused, angry and hurt that you'd turn your back on something your ancestors sacrificed so much for. Family so deeply embedded in the church that extracting them would be impossible. Where the family culture is defined by the boundaries, expectations, and policies of the LDS church. Where your marriage depends on your membership. Where your relationship with your children depends on your membership. Where your relationship with your parents and your siblings depends on your membership.


As a believing member of the Church I tend to see as much good in the church, if not much more so, than the critics see bad in the Church. So when I think of my relatives and loved ones being involved in something that-even if it weren't "true" still has truths. (Forgive people, love one another, make sacrifices, reach out, etc. Basically all the things we members ought to be doing better but often fail at accomplishing.) I have loved ones who don't seem overly concerned with all the issues we talk about on the boards because they get something different out of religion than strictly knowledge of the universe; they get social benefits, and things like that. So it really doesn't concern me.

On the flip side, regarding their behavior toward me if I were to leave, my family is very open. Members of my family have left the Church, extended and immediate. There hasn't been much ostracizing as far as that is concerned. There has been a great deal of ostracizing based on other factors, and so I can relate in that way; it's awful. That would be a terrible, terrible position to be in to have loved ones treat you poorly based on your religious convictions or lack thereof. Such phenomenon is not limited to those who decide to leave Mormonism. They are nothing special, nothing unique in that regard. It is terrible, but it's not a problem inherent in Mormonism. It's life.
[/quote]
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Inconceivable
_Emeritus
Posts: 3405
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:44 am

ENTRAPMENT..

Post by _Inconceivable »

harmony wrote:Do you really think its that easy?

What if your family, for generations, has been members, faithful tithe-paying members, called to leadership positions, even the highest leadership positions.

Family that would be very upset, very upset, confused, angry and hurt that you'd turn your back on something your ancestors sacrificed so much for.

Family so deeply embedded in the church that extracting them would be impossible.

Where the family culture is defined by the boundaries, expectations, and policies of the LDS church.

Where your marriage depends on your membership.

Where your relationship with your children depends on your membership.

Where your relationship with your parents and your siblings depends on your membership.

What then?


Harmony,

YOU SOUND LIKE EVERYONE I BAPTISED INTO THE Mormon CHURCH

Except their legacy spanned many years more - just like your ancestors before the Mormon church.

Your family most likely originated in Europe like mine did. They gave up everything you mentioned. For what? Smith, Young and the apostles that baptised them lied to them too. The difference is that you know. YOU KNOW.

There is so much they needlessly bled and suffered for based on the lies of bad men. They could have remained in England, France or Denmark or even immigrated to the US (like so many others) and lived a peaceable (and less heart wrenching) life surrounded by those they loved - rather than see them languish on the plains or witness their daughters given to old hairy men that would leave them widows before your youngest children were grown.

Well, much could be said about jumping from one frying pan to another, but your plight is heard by Mormon missionaries all over the world.

Your concerns are painfully real.

(PS - I started a new thread so as not to derail Tal's)
Last edited by Guest on Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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