Church Surveillance

[_Mercury]

Scratch: I think when you read my cited sources then we'll talk. Until then, back to your monolithic un-peer-reviewed Quinn.

You are truly ignorant. I would testify to that.

[_Imapiratewasher]

I think you are right, I know church knows things about me that surprise me. I don't know how on Earth they find out. I brought this up before. I think they will be thinking I am inactive now as I haven't been to church for about 2 months here and a month back home. It is a rather scary experience.

[_Coggins7]

Scratch: I think when you read my cited sources then we'll talk. Until then, back to your monolithic un-peer-reviewed Quinn.

LOL! Well, off you go, then. One embarrassment is probably plenty for now. Adieu!

Scratch shoots a 40mm into a bag of rice and frags himself, and then, as usual, applies for a Purple Heart.

You lost this one really bad Scratch. Even for you this should have been an embarrassing debacle, but I'm afraid you are quite beyond either intellectual honesty or shame.

[_Dr. Shades]

It has been an oft-repeated criticism of [Quinn's] work that there was insufficient editorial control.

It may have been oft-repeated by Mormons, but no non-Mormon has claimed that.

Gee, I wonder why?

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Does anyone else find this story ridiculous? Why in the world would 'Church Security' care where he lived?

Quinn, in his career as a historian, has unearthed perhaps more embarrassing truths about the Church than anyone---ever. Moreover, it seems that BKP had a personal vendetta against him. I wouldn't be surprised if Elder Packer had personally ordered these Church Security agents to hunt Quinn down.

Yes, the cruelty of hunting a man down so you can give him a letter regarding a disciplinary council......how horribly Orwellian of them.

Don't you find this at all creepy? And the reason they (or at least BKP) wanted Quinn found and kicked out was because he was a threat with books about Mormonism -- it's much easier to discredit an ex'ed Mormon than one in good standing, at least to the Mormon masses.

[_Mister Scratch]

Scratch: I think when you read my cited sources then we'll talk. Until then, back to your monolithic un-peer-reviewed Quinn.

LOL! Well, off you go, then. One embarrassment is probably plenty for now. Adieu!

Scratch shoots a 40mm into a bag of rice and frags himself, and then, as usual, applies for a Purple Heart.

You lost this one really bad Scratch. Even for you this should have been an embarrassing debacle, but I'm afraid you are quite beyond either intellectual honesty or shame.

I'm not sure what I "lost." Bob claimed to have anecdotal evidence that one of the BYU spy rings was "student instigated," yet he failed again and again to supply any texts, citations, or real references demonstrating this to be true. When Rollo consulted the exact same text (the Prince McKay bio), he came up with the exact opposite conclusion as Bob.

But then, what's the point in trying to explain this to someone who still believes that these various spy rings never existed at all?

[_Mercury]

I think you are right, I know church knows things about me that surprise me. I don't know how on Earth they find out. I brought this up before. I think they will be thinking I am inactive now as I haven't been to church for about 2 months here and a month back home. It is a rather scary experience.

Don't let them control how you feel about yourself. Fear is how they make you do things you don't want to do.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I'd say the story starts in detail at page 175; Wilkinson claims it was started by a student; student cracks under pressure and names a BYU administrator involved in the ring; three people, including my grandfather, appointed to ferret out the truth. I can't tell where the truth really lies today, but it appears students were the soldiers and in on its formation, the instigators. But, again, it doesn't matter. Admin was involved and they were to blame.

Bob, it's time to put all this silliness to rest. The story actually begins on page 174 of Prince's McKay bio. At the end of p. 174 and the beginning of p. 175 the book discusses a controversial anti-welfare state speech given by Wilkinson on April 21, 1966. Prince then writes, "In an effort to monitor the responses of suspect professors to the address, [Wilkinson] recruited student 'spies.'" (Emphasis mine). Thus, from the outset of this story Prince places instigation squarely on Wilkinson. Prince relates that rumors of spying swirled from the get-go until one of the student spies confessed to the media. Although Wilkinson survived due to his close friendship with the ailing McKay, rumors and continued confessions came, and the BYU committee (which included your grandfather) originally charged with going after liberal BYU professor, Ray Hillam, in March 1968 "concluded that [Hillam] had been innocent of the allegations and that Wilkinson himself had initiated the spy ring and then, when word if its existence leaked out, denied his involvement." (p. 178) (emphasis mine).

The only person who ever denied that Wilkinson started all this was Wilkinson himself, and even your own grandfather didn't believe him. And here you are trying to use Prince's book to continue the claim the spy ring was instigated by students, when it is clear Prince and your grandfather had the opposite conclusion. Give it up, Bob. Admit you were wrong and move on.

[_Jason Bourne]

Quinn, in his career as a historian, has unearthed perhaps more embarrassing truths about the Church than anyone---ever. Moreover, it seems that BKP had a personal vendetta against him. I wouldn't be surprised if Elder Packer had personally ordered these Church Security agents to hunt Quinn down.

Come on Scratch. Quinn has unearthed some interesting facts and curiosities, none of which have damaged the Church in the minds of any save those who's sole historical interest is to interpret any such data in a manner commensurate with precisely the desire to damage the Church.

And the meticulous scholar Quinn is not always the substantive or honest scholar his gullible shills like Anderson make him out to be. Same Sex Dynamics is little more than a work of revisionist wishful thinking in the name of a very personal agenda, amongst the worst uses to which history can be put. Both his meticulousness and substance--and his self serving intellectual sloppiness, have been well chronicled by competent LDS critics.

The Quinn groupies, here and on Laverna Fielding Anderson's pro-Quinn whine site, have turned a meticulous, well trained, and also tendentious and deeply narcissistic scholar who has used his scholarship to advance personal ideological and psychological agendas, into an intellectual giant that just does not fit his actual accomplishments or abilities, in my opinion.

This from someone who has said he has not read any of Quinn's books.

[_Jason Bourne]

I

can also assure you that I am a liberal.

My heartfelt and respectful sympathies.

Yuck, yuck, yuck!

I can assure you rc, that you will, eventually, be mugged by reality and the waking dream will end.

Sure Bob. You can go down the right witn reactionary path that seems to have made coggins so full of Christ Like Charity.

Quality will always, always, be more important than equality, as the gospel teaches

It does? Where did you get THAT from?

In the meantime, you do a great job here, in particular because of your personal knowledge of some things that others know, or claim to know, in only a second or third hand manner. I must confess that, though I'm almost 50, I've never heard of the student spy ring thing or the staking out of homosexuals flap, or the Church's part in it, and thanks so much for not letting Scratch get away with it here yet again, as I wouldn't know where on earth to go for legitimate information on these incidents otherwise.

But as we have seen there is quite a lot you are not aware of.