The Nehor wrote:In response to your bolded comment, I would call it denying the child what is not in their best interest.
I agree with you that the punishments I listed are consequences but I believe they are also punishments. It could also be called a penalty or any number of other things.
I like the definition of abuse Tumult supplied.
Why do parents put their children in "time out"? What circumstances would lead to that?
anything where they need to cool down in a place they know they go when they have done something disagreeable.
Yes. Those are typical circumstances. So what Nehor is suggesting is that it's wrong to deny children their outbursts, possible damage to self, others and property, by placing them in "time out". Else, how does he figure that "time out" is punishment?
Either that or denying them a chance to do something harmful by placing them in "time out" is not punishment.
Can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.
by the way, what Moniker said about positive reinforcement.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Nehor wrote:No child (well, at least not many) actively seek the state of time out. Generally it denies them something that they want, whether that's toys, companionship of siblings or parents, the TV, etc. I would define such a state as a punishment.
What you're actually presenting in the above, Nehor, is the concept of "time out" as punishment from the child's perspective, not the parent.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
Nehor, do you know anything about abuse. I can see why you would see that as abuse had you not experienced it or at least seen it. A lot of people feel they didn't get it easy and life is relative to us. I look at people whi think they have it bad and I am like , huh? do you know what bad is and I bet there are people out there who have had it worse, infact, I know there are.
There is a difference between abuse and punishment.
The child usually deserves punishment, but a child does not deserve abuse. When the punishment is more than fits the bill, then ok this is wrong, but abuse occurs on a constant basis, it in continually reinforced. It can even be unconscous until the point a person has a serious complex because someone has played head games with them so long they start to accept it and believe it and their mind is reprogrammed.
I understand that there is a fine line between deservable punishment and abuse, but at the extremeties there is clearly a difference and quite a few child abuse cases begin as punishment, but the child becomes desensitised and the parent goes further and further to get a message through to the child, this can be considered abuse, but the parent has the right intention in mind.
Example.
A mother loves her son so dearly, she had a bad childhood. So very bad her son wouldn't even know. She gave her son lots and lots of toys as she felt it necesary that he not have the life she had. However, she couldn't understand his bad behaviour and punished him in obscene ways. He didn't have bad behaviour at all, he was a rather polite and very well sharing young boy. Her view of the world was that he should be the perfect son as she tried always to please her mother because she never could. So then does her son not love her because he doesn't try always to please her.
Her twisted view of reality was inforced on her son. She didn't understand that he doesn't have that same view and that the world around him is not the same as it was around her and in actual fact he wasn't a bad child at all.
So say when this child had done a typical boy thing, and she thought he would need punishment, she beat him in an old fashioned manner, clearly illegal in this country and to the point she almost killed him.
Is this abuse or punishment.
Another example.
A mother loves her sons. She treats all her children differently, so differently that she would have her sons beat her daughter up for being a girl and all her daughters given away. So she takes her youngest son and pets him and says she loves him and he likes it and literally not long after she pushes him away and says she hates him, everyone hates him, he is disgusting, then takes him back. That person grows up a paranoid schizophrenic.
Is this abuse?
Another example.
A mother hits her daughter constantly and laughs afterwards and makes her daughter laugh. She is hitting her daughter for the sake of it and probably doesn't even know in herself why she does it. She punishes her daughter when naughty in the same way as when she is not naughty, but feels bad in her head, so laughs about it and hits her some more whilst laughing. That daughter then goes on to self harm unconsciously and probably conscously later on in life.
Is this abuse?
Another example.
I will make this in a workplace this time.
A boss/collegue singles you out, makes you run after their behind and everyday is not happy with your work, begins to call you names in a jokingly manor, but the name calling progresses to a point where it isn't funny anymore. The criticise everything you do and in some places this can even lead to violence. Although violence in the workspace is not often heard of, it does happen and infact happens more intense than in schools. Intimidation occurs.
I am not good at applying this in that environment so use your imagination.
In a school.
Bullying happens a lot in schools and I will have to tread carefully here as there is such a close relationship between bullying and abuse in schools.
Ubuse from peers in a school situation occurs all the time inside and outside school hours and is not just to make the bully look cool. The person generally does it for a kick or for pleasure or because they actually have a serious grudge on the person.
Abuse includes, continuous bullying, extreme violence, intimidation, make others hate the person, getting right in there and reinforcing pain whether physical emotional or mentally within the person.
Example.
A girl in school has a somewhat bad childhood, her parents are divorced, she has probably even been sexually abused (just setting a picture), She isn't the brightest star in the sky and she cannot control her anger. ( She'd make a great bully, but isn't a bully at all), she singles out a person lets say this person didn't do everything this person wanted. So she calls her names, makes up with the person then falls out the next day (I understand that especially among young girls people fall in and out a lot, it is normal, but not in the extremeties) This falling out includes a beating with no explanation as to why the other person deserved the beating. It continues to a point where the person being abused will not make back up with the person through lack of trust. So the person goes on to attacking her everyday. She fights back and often leaves the fight un beaten, but the bully type person says she kicked the other persons butt, and things that is cool. The girl would say things to get other people to hate this perosn she is beating, thinks that are really bad. Then smirks about it. Gosh, Im not doing this well. Ok, a student sets another student on fire, could be considered abuse, especially when the student that did it bullies that person.
I think what defines the difference is intensity. How often it occurs, how the person effected responds to it and feels.
In respect to emotional abuse, because I strayed a little onto different types of abuse, name calling in the extremeties with intention to cause serious damage to anothers well being is abuse. It is a type of abuse that is hard to define as we don't fully understand emotional behaviour and people have different breaking points and views of the world.
I guess what I am trying to say is that emotional/any type of abuse is NOT the same as punishement for bad behaviour. Yes, it can go to far and form into abuse, but taking away a childrens wants for bad behaviour is not abuse and in any case, the world isn't about getting everything one wants. In fact it can be in some cases considered abuse to give a child EVERYTHING they want, because you are giving them a falsified view of the world and they will someday have to go into the world with the toolbox you provide and they will fall so hard thinking they can get everything they want. This would be passive abuse, because you would be seeting someone up to be abused elsewhere.
Nehor, do you know anything about abuse. I can see why you would see that as abuse had you not experienced it or at least seen it. A lot of people feel they didn't get it easy and life is relative to us. I look at people whi think they have it bad and I am like , huh? do you know what bad is and I bet there are people out there who have had it worse, infact, I know there are.
There is a difference between abuse and punishment.
The child usually deserves punishment, but a child does not deserve abuse. When the punishment is more than fits the bill, then ok this is wrong, but abuse occurs on a constant basis, it in continually reinforced. It can even be unconscous until the point a person has a serious complex because someone has played head games with them so long they start to accept it and believe it and their mind is reprogrammed.
I understand that there is a fine line between deservable punishment and abuse, but at the extremeties there is clearly a difference and quite a few child abuse cases begin as punishment, but the child becomes desensitised and the parent goes further and further to get a message through to the child, this can be considered abuse, but the parent has the right intention in mind.
Example.
A mother loves her son so dearly, she had a bad childhood. So very bad her son wouldn't even know. She gave her son lots and lots of toys as she felt it necesary that he not have the life she had. However, she couldn't understand his bad behaviour and punished him in obscene ways. He didn't have bad behaviour at all, he was a rather polite and very well sharing young boy. Her view of the world was that he should be the perfect son as she tried always to please her mother because she never could. So then does her son not love her because he doesn't try always to please her.
Her twisted view of reality was inforced on her son. She didn't understand that he doesn't have that same view and that the world around him is not the same as it was around her and in actual fact he wasn't a bad child at all.
So say when this child had done a typical boy thing, and she thought he would need punishment, she beat him in an old fashioned manner, clearly illegal in this country and to the point she almost killed him.
Is this abuse or punishment.
Another example.
A mother loves her sons. She treats all her children differently, so differently that she would have her sons beat her daughter up for being a girl and all her daughters given away. So she takes her youngest son and pets him and says she loves him and he likes it and literally not long after she pushes him away and says she hates him, everyone hates him, he is disgusting, then takes him back. That person grows up a paranoid schizophrenic.
Is this abuse?
Another example.
A mother hits her daughter constantly and laughs afterwards and makes her daughter laugh. She is hitting her daughter for the sake of it and probably doesn't even know in herself why she does it. She punishes her daughter when naughty in the same way as when she is not naughty, but feels bad in her head, so laughs about it and hits her some more whilst laughing. That daughter then goes on to self harm unconsciously and probably conscously later on in life.
Is this abuse?
Another example.
I will make this in a workplace this time.
A boss/collegue singles you out, makes you run after their behind and everyday is not happy with your work, begins to call you names in a jokingly manor, but the name calling progresses to a point where it isn't funny anymore. The criticise everything you do and in some places this can even lead to violence. Although violence in the workspace is not often heard of, it does happen and infact happens more intense than in schools. Intimidation occurs.
I am not good at applying this in that environment so use your imagination.
In a school.
Bullying happens a lot in schools and I will have to tread carefully here as there is such a close relationship between bullying and abuse in schools.
Ubuse from peers in a school situation occurs all the time inside and outside school hours and is not just to make the bully look cool. The person generally does it for a kick or for pleasure or because they actually have a serious grudge on the person.
Abuse includes, continuous bullying, extreme violence, intimidation, make others hate the person, getting right in there and reinforcing pain whether physical emotional or mentally within the person.
Example.
A girl in school has a somewhat bad childhood, her parents are divorced, she has probably even been sexually abused (just setting a picture), She isn't the brightest star in the sky and she cannot control her anger. ( She'd make a great bully, but isn't a bully at all), she singles out a person lets say this person didn't do everything this person wanted. So she calls her names, makes up with the person then falls out the next day (I understand that especially among young girls people fall in and out a lot, it is normal, but not in the extremeties) This falling out includes a beating with no explanation as to why the other person deserved the beating. It continues to a point where the person being abused will not make back up with the person through lack of trust. So the person goes on to attacking her everyday. She fights back and often leaves the fight un beaten, but the bully type person says she kicked the other persons butt, and things that is cool. The girl would say things to get other people to hate this perosn she is beating, thinks that are really bad. Then smirks about it. Gosh, Im not doing this well. Ok, a student sets another student on fire, could be considered abuse, especially when the student that did it bullies that person.
I think what defines the difference is intensity. How often it occurs, how the person effected responds to it and feels.
In respect to emotional abuse, because I strayed a little onto different types of abuse, name calling in the extremeties with intention to cause serious damage to anothers well being is abuse. It is a type of abuse that is hard to define as we don't fully understand emotional behaviour and people have different breaking points and views of the world.
I guess what I am trying to say is that emotional/any type of abuse is NOT the same as punishement for bad behaviour. Yes, it can go to far and form into abuse, but taking away a childrens wants for bad behaviour is not abuse and in any case, the world isn't about getting everything one wants. In fact it can be in some cases considered abuse to give a child EVERYTHING they want, because you are giving them a falsified view of the world and they will someday have to go into the world with the toolbox you provide and they will fall so hard thinking they can get everything they want. This would be passive abuse, because you would be seeting someone up to be abused elsewhere.
The Nehor wrote:In response to your bolded comment, I would call it denying the child what is not in their best interest.
I agree with you that the punishments I listed are consequences but I believe they are also punishments. It could also be called a penalty or any number of other things.
I like the definition of abuse Tumult supplied.
Why do parents put their children in "time out"? What circumstances would lead to that?
anything where they need to cool down in a place they know they go when they have done something disagreeable.
Yes. Those are typical circumstances. So what Nehor is suggesting is that it's wrong to deny children their outbursts, possible damage to self, others and property, by placing them in "time out". Else, how does he figure that "time out" is punishment?
Either that or denying them a chance to do something harmful by placing them in "time out" is not punishment.
Can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.
by the way, what Moniker said about positive reinforcement.
No, I'm not. I think it is punishment. I don't think it's wrong to do it either. I was pointing out that the definition in the OP of abuse is far too broad. I don't want it both ways.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Nehor wrote:No child (well, at least not many) actively seek the state of time out. Generally it denies them something that they want, whether that's toys, companionship of siblings or parents, the TV, etc. I would define such a state as a punishment.
What you're actually presenting in the above, Nehor, is the concept of "time out" as punishment from the child's perspective, not the parent.
I think it is punishment from both perspectives. I think I have been misunderstood though. Everyone seems to think that by saying this behavior falls under the OP's original definition of abuse, I'm saying it's wrong. That is not what I meant. I was trying to show that that definition of abuse would include what I would call normal, healthy parenting. It would even include fair government.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo