Life After Death

[_Sam Harris]

You should add "I don't know" to your poll.

I used to believe in life after death, but now I'm not sure. I'd like to believe in it.

ktall

I agree. "I don't know" would have been a good option. I have hopes and beliefs, but they don't really fit any of the above. But I don't spend time dwelling on it.

[_truth dancer]

How about another few options for the women of the board....

Is death the best thing that can happen to a woman?

Is death the worst thing that can happen to a woman?
Just because woman hardly exist in the LDS church (and other cultures) doesn't mean that we really don't exist. :-)

But even with these options, I would vote, "I don't know."

I do feel quite certain that there is NO chance the afterlife is anything like what is taught in the LDS church. The LDS teachings of the afterlife just truly go against every sense of how the universe works.

Here is my guess:

Since there has been no new matter/energy since the first moments of the Big Bang, and every, EVERY creation is a transformation of that initial energy, my best guess is that the universe will continue to transform what we think of as us in amazing and completely new ways. That the teeny tiny bit of us that is matter will continue to turn into other forms of existence on our planet for another five billion years or so, and that the "emptiness" that is about 99.99% of us will continue to exist as it has for nearly fourteen billion years.

:-)

~dancer~

[_ajax18]

So the rewards or punishments found in religion motivate people to live a life for the reward or to avert the eternal wailing and gnashing of teeth?

Yes, I think it motivates people. Taking the more dfficult path simply because it's the right thing to do can motivate people to an extent, but the rewards and punishment idea is definitely a stronger motivation IMHO

What precisely is eternal justice? Hell? Heaven?

I had always felt a truth in Joseph Smith's idea that people would be grouped in the next life based on what level of law they lived. I saw the same idea in the near death experience book, "Return from tomorrow." Eternal justice to me means that all scores left unsettled on earth will be settled later by God in a more perfect way than we could obtain justice for ourselves.

Now obviously I have no evidence for this and Truth Dancers point that justice is a manmade concept is what the evidence would present. It's just my idea of what is right.

[_ajax18]

="truth dancer"]How about another few options for the women of the board....

TD you know that "man" refers to all human beings. I'll fully admit that language is sexist, but to me "he or she" is just plain awkward. But since you're interested in the thread, which I didn't anticipate, I'll try to use "she" more, but I'm not using "he or she."

But even with these options, I would vote, "I don't know."

Yeah, I agree, nobody really knows. I guess I left that option out becaues I wanted to make a, "forced choice," to get our best guess.

I do feel quite certain that there is NO chance the afterlife is anything like what is taught in the LDS church. The LDS teachings of the afterlife just truly go against every sense of how the universe works.

As Tal Bachman astutely pointed out, "there really is no such thing as Mormon doctrine." The Mormon teachings my parents subscribed to seem to add up pretty well with how the universe works. D&C 82:10 Which particular teachings do you note that go against how the universe works.

Here is my guess:

Since there has been no new matter/energy since the first moments of the Big Bang, and every, EVERY creation is a transformation of that initial energy, my best guess is that the universe will continue to transform what we think of as us in amazing and completely new ways.

Well we know the universe is expanding, and as you pointed out has been since the big bang. Entropy seems to be the current status quo. But it is conceivable that if the universe were once expanding, it would have had to be contracting at some point. In this state, order would be the status quo. The current laws of physics and thermodynamics could actually be reversed at some point.

[_Roger Morrison]

Great to have two Dancing Truth above me. How can i go wrong?:-)

My understanding of Death has evolved to THE truth, "i don't know." How could it honestly be otherwise? Then to, "I don't care!" Why should it be otherwise?

OTOH, what i THINK is: "From dust to dust." Back to the elements from which i came, and that continued to nourish my mortality. Maybe in a zillion years i might be in a piece of coal giving heat. Might that be Hell? Or, possibly i'll glisten in a diamond on some fair-lady's finger. Might that be exhaltation?

I don't think death is to be taken seriously. Except of course as it is in the loss of a loved one. I BELIEVE life IS to be taken seriously. Not morosely, unless you have been dealt a bad-hand by THE croupier, but as a joyous adventure and personally prospering journey.

As i age (75:-) and draw closer to MY death, far away from my never-gonna-die youth, i am most comfortable with my current understanding of the life/death cycle. It is a "cycle", but not as my SS teachers, and LDS doctrinaires taught. Rather, the "cycle" is self-evident in the natural world in which we live, and die. Scavengers, in their many forms will re-cycle my body to another useful, not wasteful, state that will contribute to sustaining life in another form.

Further, my (every) "spirit" lives in memory. Remembered for its contribution to family mortality. And in the larger society of humanity. Some barely, others for thousands of years. Not necessarily because of "good", but for playing their role, major or minor, on life's comedy/tragedy stage.

Sooooo, contribute to, and savour life while you're living. Ain't no other time, ain't no other place. by the way, I do hope for a painless exit ;-) Warm regards, Roger (Was that "free" enough "thinking"? :-)

[_truth dancer]

Hey Ajax,

TD you know that "man" refers to all human beings.

I don't think "a man" ever referred to men and women. I don't think you were purposely leaving out women but just trying to help us all move into the 21st century! ;-)

I'll fully admit that language is sexist,

Yeah... so we don't need to continue the sexism! (smile)

but to me "he or she" is just plain awkward.

Some good option... humankind, people, men and women, etc. etc.

But since you're interested in the thread, which I didn't anticipate, I'll try to use "she" more, but I'm not using "he or she."

Thanks! :-) OK, moving on to the topic....

But even with these options, I would vote, "I don't know."

Yeah, I agree, nobody really knows. I guess I left that option out becaues I wanted to make a, "forced choice," to get our best guess.

I do think that is all anyone does.... guess. Humans have guessed based on what they want, what gives them hope.

I think it is actually very interesting to look at the after life myths throughout history as they reflect the desires of those who created them. In other words, it gives us a picture of what the originator hoped for. (Same is true for God myths, in my opinion).

TD:

I do feel quite certain that there is NO chance the afterlife is anything like what is taught in the LDS church. The LDS teachings of the afterlife just truly go against every sense of how the universe works.

As Tal Bachman astutely pointed out, "there really is no such thing as Mormon doctrine."

I am going with the traditional teachings and scripture found in LDS canon... that God is a human male similar to the advanced primates we call Homo Sapiens on this earth at this particular moment of the history of our universe, with numerous wives procreating for eternity, etc. etc. etc.

I don't think this can be even a remote possibility.

The Mormon teachings my parents subscribed to seem to add up pretty well with how the universe works. D&C 82:10 Which particular teachings do you note that go against how the universe works.

Our form is a result of living on this particular earth, with a very particular four billion year history. And, our species will continue to evolve for some time to come until we go extinct (maybe another few million years). The entire universe is like a story unfolding, evolving, deepening, creating, transforming... after nearly fourteen billion years I just don't see it stopping and becoming something totally different any time soon (maybe another fifteen billion years or so). The idea that humans evolved for all these years then at this particular moment in history stopped because God is like us, makes no sense to me. Since we know the universe doesn't waste energy, and life seems to release that which is not needed or is maladaptive (over millions of years), the idea that God needs bones, flesh, hair, fingernails, a bladder, a stomach, teeth, intestines, etc. etc. etc. just truly seems nonsensical to me. The idea that there could be another world who has the exact same four billion year history as our Earth is virtually impossible in this known universe, (unless of course we start getting into alternate universes, fairy tale worlds, and make believe reality). I could go on and on, the point being, the myth that God is a man (angry, jealous, sexual, as is taught) with a harem on a sphere next to Kolob seems to come out of the very limited mind of a man rather than reflect anything that has to do with reality.

Well we know the universe is expanding, and as you pointed out has been since the big bang. Entropy seems to be the current status quo.

Either than or blow apart. If I recall correctly scientist believe we are about half way through the life of our universe.

But it is conceivable that if the universe were once expanding, it would have had to be contracting at some point. In this state, order would be the status quo. The current laws of physics and thermodynamics could actually be reversed at some point.

From what I understand (not being a scientist), even the laws of our universe were created AFTER the big bang, In other words, the very dynamics of the creation created the "laws" (gravity didn't exist until after the universe could experience it), and yes all sorts of things could come forth as our universe continues to unfold.

What seems impossible is that God is a human being like those on our particular world, at our particular moment in the history of our universe.

I don't know much but I feel quite certain there is MUCH, MUCH more to existence than what we little humans can possibly understand. The LDS myth seems WAY too small to even begin to reflect anything close to reality... IMHO! ;-)

~dancer~

[_Brackite]

Consciousness is the excretion of the brain. As the brain goes, so goes the person.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this statement.
Please Check Out And See:

People Have NDEs While Brain Dead:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

[_Moniker]

So the rewards or punishments found in religion motivate people to live a life for the reward or to avert the eternal wailing and gnashing of teeth?

Yes, I think it motivates people. Taking the more dfficult path simply because it's the right thing to do can motivate people to an extent, but the rewards and punishment idea is definitely a stronger motivation IMHO

You know, I think this is a sentiment lots of people hold. I disagree. It is an extrinsic reward. I would think we would all be better off if humanity would move closer to the intrinsic rewards of "good deeds".

What precisely is eternal justice? Hell? Heaven?

I had always felt a truth in Joseph Smith's idea that people would be grouped in the next life based on what level of law they lived. I saw the same idea in the near death experience book, "Return from tomorrow." Eternal justice to me means that all scores left unsettled on earth will be settled later by God in a more perfect way than we could obtain justice for ourselves.

Now obviously I have no evidence for this and Truth Dancers point that justice is a manmade concept is what the evidence would present. It's just my idea of what is right.

I don't understand what "level of law" means. Could you elaborate on that? Thanks. :)

[_ajax18]

In the book, Return from tomorrow, the author basically said that people who were thieves and remained this way would have to live with other thieves. You could extend that to how people treat their spouses. I would say that they will be paired with people who treat their spouses the same way. If you're judgmental and condemning, you'll be put with the same kind of judgmental people. If you're lazy, you'll live with lazy people. If you're merciful, you'll be with merciful people.

Betty Eadie talked about her mind going back to when she took her sister's Christmas toy. She said she all the sudden felt just as her sister did many years ago, even though she had long since forgotten about the experience. It all came back to her memory, simultaneously and in less than a second.

Basically means, you reap what you sew.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Ajax,

There are about as many versions of the afterlife as there are people! :-)

What seems clear is that virtually EVERYONE who has NDE exerience, has a version of the afterlife in harmony with their actual religious or philosophical beliefs.

In other words, LDS folks don't seem to encounter Mother Mary, Buddhist don't see Joseph Smith, Hindus don't experience the three degrees of glory, etc. etc.



:-)

~dancer~