How far does "Freedom of Religion" go?

[_wenglund]

The pro-abortion industry is adverse to informing young pregnant women about the significant psychological factors of abortions, and they are also loath to teaching such life-respecting contraceptive methods like abstinance.
Thanks, -Wade Englund-

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health ... e-4215.htm

They do talk to the young woman about all the different birth control available, and abstinence is one of them -- they do this before a woman walks out of their door. If they want birth control pills (that's preferable than the woman coming back for another abortion) they are provided these by Planned Parenthood, as well. Planned Parenthood is not pro-abortion. If it was there wouldn't be such a push to get ALL the women that come to their clinics on some sort of birth control.

Thanks, -You're a Dodo

I was aware of the contents of that link--having read it prior to responding earlier to John Larsen.

Evidently, though, you lack the same capacity to make the distinctions I pointed out to John (as well as inclined to jump to the inane conclusion that teaching about birth control means one is not pro-abortion), which led him to mistakenly call me dishonest and you to mis-direct your use of the name "Dodo". ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You should have read the contents of the link before making a false statement and then trying to backtrack. It's a false statement. Own up to it.

Wade, read your own words:

The pro-abortion industry is adverse to informing young pregnant women about the significant psychological factors of abortions, and they are also loath to teaching such life-respecting contraceptive methods like abstinance.

I replied to the second part of your sentence. It's false. They do not loathe it -- they infact do talk about abstinence with their clients.

Again, the fact that they may teach something, doesn't not mean they don't loath doing so. I loathe square dancing, but I have square danced on occasion. I loathe cooked spinach, but I ate it quite frequently in my youth. I loathe hearing people gossip, but I have have subjected myself to it quite frequently here. ;-)

Well, the difference between you loathing square dancing and the assumption that "pro-abortion" clinics loathe teaching abstinence is that you're not a "pro-abortion" clinic. Are you a mind reader? I bet you wear a nifty jeweled turban!

While it is true that I am not a "pro-abortion" clinic, my square dancing analogy cannot rationally be interpreted to suggest that I thought otherwise. Analogies, by their very nature, presuppose some differences, it just that the differences, as in this case, are not relevant to what is being analogized.

It is also true that you are not a "pro-abortion" clinic, but that didn't stop you from ironically speaking for the the clinics.

Also, a "pro-abortion" clinic is not a person (though it may contain people), and thus does not have a "mind" to read. However, the people who have advocated for and run the clinics do have minds--minds that need not be read if the people speak their minds (which is precisely how I derived my general perception).

Where you obtained your perception is anyone's guess, though one may reasonably wonder if you were falsely projecting regarding the jeweled turban (see below). ;-)

Are you starting to understand yet? Or, do I need to connect the dots?

I'll connect the dots for both of us! :)


Wade.... knows his own loathings........... Wade wears a jeweled turban and can read the mind of clinics everywhere..........

That's ironic. To use your own reasoning: "you are not [Wade]. Are you a mind reader?"

Granted, as previously intimated, one can avoid reading minds in cases where the mind has spoken. The problem here is, you have not only jumped to the conclusion above before I had spoken my mind and answered your question, but you also jumped to the conclusion above contrary to what I have subsequently spoken. In other words, you not only attempted to read my mind, but you managed to misread it. Thus the jeweled turban seems more fitting atop the head of she who conjured up the straw man of her own making. Can you say "projection"?

I then talked about the term "pro-abortion". If a clinic was pro-abortion would they want women to be on birth control so they no longer get pregnant and seek abortions?

Are you supposing that people can't be both pro-abortion and pro-birthcontrol? Because if that is what you assume, then you can easily test your hypothesis by calling the local Planned Parenthood office and asking them if they are pro-abortion. In fact, why not check out the same website you recommended to me (after I had alreay read it), and read the following position statement: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/abortion/

No, I'm not supposing anything of the sort. I am telling you what Planned Parenthood considers itself. It prefers women NOT to get abortions. Hmm... those that wish women never had abortions doesn't sound very pro--abortion to me. Yet, you know I don't have the special power of insight and ESP you apparently have.

Could you please point me to where Planned Parenthood explicitly said it prefers women NOT to get abortions?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Freedom of religion apparently extends far enough to legally use what is otherwise illegal drugs, but not far enough to allow for theft, rape, and murder.

I'm not sure that anyone has a right or responsibility to save someone from being sheltered. If I want to play games instead of watch the news, I don't think it's your business to make me hear about the world. That said, I'm not particularly comfortable with people denying themselves of the great things from science and history. I just don't know about forcing someone to understand what is happening in the world.

Good points. This incident has made me think about how much "sheltering" should be legal. I think it's quite possible that the FLDS women in Texas might actually believe they are "happy," and even more enlightened, intelligent, etc., BECAUSE they are sheltered from the wickedness of the world. They may even be hearing right now for the first time that older men marrying young girls, impregnating them, controlling them in every way is wrong!

So again, how much forced isolationism is okay, as it relates to freedom of religion?

This is an area where I have defended the LDS church. Even though I was advised not to read or view certain material, I was never threatened (in a worldly way) at all. I studied, chose to leave, and never had a cross word said to me during the process. To me, this is a significant reason I don't consider the church a cult, as some others do. I think if there is forced censorship, it is most likely a cult.

Just some rambling thoughts....

The question of "sheltering" comes up in secular debates as well. The pro-abortion industry is adverse to informing young pregnant women about the significant psychological factors of abortions, and they are also loath to teaching such life-respecting contraceptive methods like abstinance. Many liberal schools and adherents wish to "shelter" young and impressionable minds from the alures of conservative and capitalistic thought. Etc., etc.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Sorry but you are incorrect here, Wade.

First, there is no “pro-abortion industry.” Pro-choice is not pro-abortion and there is no “industry” as the context of your statements claims.

As many have advised here, you are incorrect. Moniker is correct regarding what is discussed in planned parenthood.

More information is superior to less information. While some favor keeping young people ignorant regarding options, it’s doomed to failure. Hiding or concealing information available contributes to the dangers of misinformation and false options.

JAK

I appreciate you sharing your opinion (dogmatic as it were), though I respectfully disagree.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_harmony]

Could you please point me to where Planned Parenthood explicitly said it prefers women NOT to get abortions?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Could you please document that PP prefers for women to get abortions?

And answer my question in the post above, please.

[_Moniker]

The pro-abortion industry is adverse to informing young pregnant women about the significant psychological factors of abortions, and they are also loath to teaching such life-respecting contraceptive methods like abstinance.
Thanks, -Wade Englund-

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health ... e-4215.htm

They do talk to the young woman about all the different birth control available, and abstinence is one of them -- they do this before a woman walks out of their door. If they want birth control pills (that's preferable than the woman coming back for another abortion) they are provided these by Planned Parenthood, as well. Planned Parenthood is not pro-abortion. If it was there wouldn't be such a push to get ALL the women that come to their clinics on some sort of birth control.

Thanks, -You're a Dodo

I was aware of the contents of that link--having read it prior to responding earlier to John Larsen.

Evidently, though, you lack the same capacity to make the distinctions I pointed out to John (as well as inclined to jump to the inane conclusion that teaching about birth control means one is not pro-abortion), which led him to mistakenly call me dishonest and you to mis-direct your use of the name "Dodo". ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You should have read the contents of the link before making a false statement and then trying to backtrack. It's a false statement. Own up to it.

Wade, read your own words:

The pro-abortion industry is adverse to informing young pregnant women about the significant psychological factors of abortions, and they are also loath to teaching such life-respecting contraceptive methods like abstinance.

I replied to the second part of your sentence. It's false. They do not loathe it -- they infact do talk about abstinence with their clients.

Again, the fact that they may teach something, doesn't not mean they don't loath doing so. I loathe square dancing, but I have square danced on occasion. I loathe cooked spinach, but I ate it quite frequently in my youth. I loathe hearing people gossip, but I have have subjected myself to it quite frequently here. ;-)

Well, the difference between you loathing square dancing and the assumption that "pro-abortion" clinics loathe teaching abstinence is that you're not a "pro-abortion" clinic. Are you a mind reader? I bet you wear a nifty jeweled turban!

While it is true that I am not a "pro-abortion" clinic, my square dancing analogy cannot rationally be interpreted to suggest that I thought otherwise. Analogies, by their very nature, presuppose some differences, it just that the differences, as in this case, are not relevant to what is being analogized.

It is also true that you are not a "pro-abortion" clinic, but that didn't stop you from ironically speaking for the the clinics.

I parroted what the clinics themselves say. You do NOT. You attempt to say what you believe the clinics do -- I say what the clinics themselves say they do. Do you see the difference? Probably not. :)

Also, a "pro-abortion" clinic is not a person (though it may contain people), and thus does not have a "mind" to read. However, the people who have advocated for and run the clinics do have minds--minds that need not be read if the people speak their minds (which is precisely how I derived my general perception).

Well, you say the clinics "loathe" doing something. You back up that statement, please? How do you know?

Where you obtained your perception is anyone's guess, though one may reasonably wonder if you were falsely projecting regarding the jeweled turban (see below). ;-)

Hi, Wade. When I stated what the pro-abortion clinics say themselves there is no mind reading. When I say that you know your own loathings (after you say you do in fact know your own loathings) there is no mind reading.

Are you starting to understand yet? Or, do I need to connect the dots?

I'll connect the dots for both of us! :)


Wade.... knows his own loathings........... Wade wears a jeweled turban and can read the mind of clinics everywhere..........

That's ironic. To use your own reasoning: "you are not [Wade]. Are you a mind reader?"

So, which part was I doing mind reading on? That you say you know what you loathe? Noooo... you already spoke to that. That you apparently think you know precisely what clinics "loathe" or do not "loathe" doing per your statements? I took YOUR statements Wade -- what YOU stated. I didn't have to see into your mind and assume anything. 1. You say what you loathe. 2. You say what clinics "loathe" without any evidence presented.

Granted, as previously intimated, one can avoid reading minds in cases where the mind has spoken. The problem here is, you have not only jumped to the conclusion above before I had spoken my mind and answered your question, but you also jumped to the conclusion above contrary to what I have subsequently spoken. In other words, you not only attempted to read my mind, but you managed to misread it. Thus the jeweled turban seems more fitting atop the head of she who conjured up the straw man of her own making. Can you say "projection"?

Well, then there was no mind reading on MY part. Agreed! You spoke of your loathings and the loathings of the clinics. I commented on your statements and want to know why you think there are "loathing" on the part of clinics. What was the mind reading on my behalf?

Can you say, "nice try"?

I then talked about the term "pro-abortion". If a clinic was pro-abortion would they want women to be on birth control so they no longer get pregnant and seek abortions?

Are you supposing that people can't be both pro-abortion and pro-birthcontrol? Because if that is what you assume, then you can easily test your hypothesis by calling the local Planned Parenthood office and asking them if they are pro-abortion. In fact, why not check out the same website you recommended to me (after I had alreay read it), and read the following position statement: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/abortion/

No, I'm not supposing anything of the sort. I am telling you what Planned Parenthood considers itself. It prefers women NOT to get abortions. Hmm... those that wish women never had abortions doesn't sound very pro--abortion to me. Yet, you know I don't have the special power of insight and ESP you apparently have.

Could you please point me to where Planned Parenthood explicitly said it prefers women NOT to get abortions?

I can show you where Planned Parenthood is EXTREMELY active in getting women on birth control pills and legislating for cheaper birth control pills so there are less unintended pregnancies. So, if Planned Parenthood is active in attempting to PREVENT unintended pregnancies it doesn't appear that they're eager to have a bunch of clients that are pregnant and needing abortions! They will provide abortions, yet, make steps to prevent any woman from ever having to have one. This can't be news to you? Also you took one statement of mine and ignored the other statements that explained the position of Planned Parenthood.

http://www.ppaction.org/campaign/2007_bcprice

That's just a simple form letter.

Here they talk about the necessity of birth control to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/issues ... 783%20.htm

More about unintended pregnancies -- they're work involved in preventing it.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/issues ... n-6129.htm

There's oooodles of this!

Now please provide something that shows that pro-abortion clinics "loathe" teaching abstinence. Thanks! :)

[_harmony]

*bump*

C'mon, Wade. Answer.

[_wenglund]

Now, now, folks, let's give Wade a chance to explain. If a horse can be a tapir, then "loathe" can be something else too.

What I want to know is... what significant psychologicals factors happen as a result of an abortion that the clinics are supposed to warn women about, and don't? Because the APA says PAS is bunk.

No, the APA does not say PAS is bunk. Rather, one of their longitudinal studies failed to find significant evidence of the disorder. In fact, in a congressional meeting, an APA spokesman granted that PAS does exist, but to a minor degree.

Whatever the case, while PAS may not be that widespread, there is statistical evidence of a variety of negative psychological affects due to abortion. Here is a list from the Elliot Insitute: http://www.afterabortion.information/psychol.html

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Could you please point me to where Planned Parenthood explicitly said it prefers women NOT to get abortions?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Could you please document that PP prefers for women to get abortions?

Had I made that claim, I would. I didn't, so I won't.

And answer my question in the post above, please.

Done.

Thanks for your impatience, -Wade Englund-

[Guest]

Just reading this thread during my lunch ... I thought I'd post a small snippet of what Planned Parenthood is really about:

"How can I decide which choice is best for me?
Consider each of your choices carefully. Ask yourself

* Which choice(s) could I live with?
* Which choice(s) would be impossible for me?
* How would each choice affect my everyday life?
* What would each choice mean to the people closest to me?

It may also help to ask yourself

* What is going on in my life?
* What are my plans for the future?
* What are my spiritual and moral beliefs?
* What do I believe is best for me in the long run?
* What can I afford?

Talk about your feelings with your partner, someone in your family, or a trusted friend — someone you think will be supportive.

Of course they're not going to say that they "prefer that women don't get an abortion". Their entire purpose is so that women can make and informed choice that's best for them in the present and in the future.

[_wenglund]

No, I'm not supposing anything of the sort. I am telling you what Planned Parenthood considers itself. It prefers women NOT to get abortions. Hmm... those that wish women never had abortions doesn't sound very pro--abortion to me. Yet, you know I don't have the special power of insight and ESP you apparently have.

Could you please point me to where Planned Parenthood explicitly said it prefers women NOT to get abortions?

I can show you where Planned Parenthood is EXTREMELY active in getting women on birth control pills and legislating for cheaper birth control pills so there are less unintended pregnancies. So, if Planned Parenthood is active in attempting to PREVENT unintended pregnancies it doesn't appear that they're eager to have a bunch of clients that are pregnant and needing abortions!

Clearly, you do not understand the obvious distinction between "preferring women NOT to get abortions" and "EXTREMELY active in getting women on birth control pills..."

In principle, it is like saying that dentist prefer that people not get their cavities filled because they are often touting cavity prevention techniques. Does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Canucklehead]

Clearly, you do not understand the obvious distinction between "preferring women NOT to get abortions" and "EXTREMELY active in getting women on birth control pills..."

In principle, it is like saying that dentist prefer that people not get their cavities filled because they are often touting cavity prevention techniques. Does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yikes. Now that's a simile I would have stayed away from.