Hey Mormon guys and gals! - Nugget #1 from the CHI:

[_The Dude]

The church thinks it is wise for people to keep their options open. You never know what's going to happen down the line. You might win a million dollars and decide you can afford to have another baby. Or your spouse might die or divorce you, and you might like to have more kids with another person. You might have to repopulate the human race after a nuclear holocaust. I could go on. I agree with this for myself.

Maybe they shouldn't say strongly.

At least they aren't being Catholic about it. ;)

[_bcspace]

Then why even say that a couple "should" consult with the bishop?

Indeed. What then is the purpose? Instead of manufacturing shock value, one should be searching for the answer.

The same language doesn't apply to using condoms or the pill. There is a distinction made just in the separate method of treating the issue.

The proof is left to the student.

Teacher: Approach, students. Close the circle at the feet of the master. You have come to me asking that I be your guide along the path of Ti Kwan Leep. But, be warned: To learn its ways, you must learn the ways of your own soul. Let us meditate upon this wisdom now. So: Aaaaaaooooommm......
Student1 (Ed Gruberman): Uh, sir! Sir! (oo! oo!) Sir!
Teacher: Who disturbs our meditation, as a pebble disturbs the stillness of the pond?
EG: Me! Ed Gruberman?
Teacher: E-Ed Gruberman?
EG: Yeah, uh, no disrespect or nothin', but, like, uh, how long is this gonna take?
Teacher: Ti Kwan Leep is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.
EG: So like, what, an hour or so?
Teacher: No, no, we have not even begun upon the path. Ed Gruberman, you must learn patience.
EG: Yeah yeah yeah, patience. How long will that take?
Teacher: Time has no meaning. To a true student, a year is as a day.
EG: A YEAR??? I wanna beat people up right now! I got the pajamas! Hah woo yah ooomm!
Teacher: "Beat people up"...?
EG: Yeah! Just show me all those nifty moves so I can start trashing bozos! That's all I came here for! YO ASTA STA STA!!! Pretty good, ey?
Teacher: The only use of Ti Kwan Leep is self-defense. Do you know who said that? Ki Lo Ni, the great teacher.
EG: Yeah? Well the best defense is a good offense, you know who said that? Mel, the cook on "Alice".
Teacher: No, um...Ti Kwan Leep is the wine of purity, not the vinegar of hostility. Meditate upon this truth with us. Aaaaoooommm...
EG: Listen, shrimp! All this fag talk is really starting to piss me off. Now, are you gonna show me some fancy moves, or am I gonna start wapin' the walls with you?
Teacher: Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ti Kwan Leep. Approach me that you might see.
EG: All right! Finally some action!
Teacher: Observe closely, class. Boot to the Head! (SH-ZOOMP!)
EG (drunkenly): Owww! You booted me in the head!
Teacher: You are lucky, Ed Gruberman. Few novices experience so much of Ti Kwan Leep so soon.
EG (quietly, to himself): Ow, oh, my head!
Teacher: Now we continue. Aaaaaoooommmm...
EG: Hey! Hey, I wasn't ready! Come and get me now shorty, huh? Come on, are ya chicken?
Teacher: Boot to the head! (SH-ZOOMP!)
EG (again, drunkenly): Oww! Okay, now I'm ready, okay, now, come on, try it now.
Teacher: Boot to the head! (SH-ZOOMP!)
EG: Mind if I just lie down here for a minute?
Teacher: Now class, we shall return to our...
Student2: Master?
Teacher: It is wrong to tip the vessel of knowledge, student.
Student2: Many apologies, master. But I feel Ed Gruberman is not wholly wrong.
Teacher: What do you mean?
Student2: I want to boot some head, too.
Teacher: Have you learned nothing from the lesson of Ed Gruberman?
Student2: Yes, master. I have learned two things. First, that anger is a weapon only to one's opponent.
Teacher: Very good.
Student2: And secondly, get in the first shot. Boot to the head. (SH-ZOOMP!)
Teacher: You missed.
Student2: Uh, yeah. Well...
Teacher: You too shall be honored to learn a lesson...
Student2: You don't have to, you know. I-I gotta be going...
Teacher: Boot to the head! (SH-ZOOMP!)
Student2 : (agonizing pain) Oyyy oy oyyyy.... Oh....
Teacher: Can anyone tell us what lesson has been learned here?
Student3: Uh, yes, master. Not a single one of us could defeat you.
Teacher: You gain wisdom, child.
Student3: So we'll hafta gang up on ya! Get 'im guys!

(Teacher throws many 'Boot to the head!s' and 'SH-ZOOMP!s'.
There are many people groaning in pain.)

Teacher: And now class, let us rejoin the mind to the body and gaze into the heart of the candle in meditation.
Unison: Aaaaaoooommm....
Teacher: Very good, class.

Ti Kwan Leep

[_karl61]

I don't know why the church has any say as the Lord can do what he wants - look at Abraham and Sara. The Lord can also empower those little guys to cross any divide or any ocean or any natural barrier as long as it's his will.

[_Canucklehead]

Even though this is in the CHI, it's not generally known to the members at large.

I wonder if there's ever been a bishop who decided that he needed to let his flock know about the Church's opinion on vasectomies, and that if they were considering it, they should consult with him first.

[_AmazingDisgrace]

This is still a lot better than the church's old stance on birth control:

When the husband and wife are healthy, and free from inherited weaknesses and diseases that might be transmitted with injury to their offspring the use of contraceptives is to be condemned.

David O. McKay, Conference Report, October 1943, p. 30

We declare it is a grievous sin before God to adopt restrictive measures in disobedience to God's divine command from the beginning of time to ‘multiply and replenish the earth.’ Surely those who project such measures to prevent life or to destroy life before or after birth will reap the whirlwind of God's retribution, for God will not be mocked.

Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, October 1972, p. 63

Many good people, being influenced by the bold spirit of the times, are now seeking surgery for the wife or the husband so they may avoid pregnancies and comply with the strident voice demanding a reduction of children. It was never easy to bear and rear children, but easy things do not make for growth and development. But loud, blatant voices today shout ‘fewer children’ and offer the Pill, drugs, surgery, and even ugly abortion to accomplish that. Strange the proponents of depopulating the world seem never to have thought of continence!

Spencer W. Kimball, Conference Report, April 1971, p. 7

[_Jason Bourne]

Surgical Sterilization (Including Vasectomy):

The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. It
should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2)
birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not
responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical
judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision
should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of
their decision through prayer.


Heres a freebie -

Surrogate Motherhood:

Surrogate motherhood is strongly discouraged.

Ah this is no big deal given the Church's fairly open position about birth control these days. And a lot of members just get the V or tied tubes anyway. Many members don't even know about this policy as they do not have the CHI.

[_The Nehor]

Considering the Church's stance on birth control......

Birth Control

It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for
the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear. The decision as
to how many children to have and when to have them is extremely intimate and private and
should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another
in this matter.

Married couples also should understand that sexual relations within marriage are divinely
approved not only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a means of expressing love and
strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife.

.....I'd say Merc is trying to manufacture some shock value (either that or more lazy research on his part) by implying the statement means something it does not.

My body is my own and my wifes body is my wifes. The church should not have an opinion on vasectomies or TL's

Can God have an opinion on it?

[_Mercury]

.....I'd say Merc is trying to manufacture some shock value (either that or more lazy research on his part) by implying the statement means something it does not.

My body is my own and my wifes body is my wifes. The church should not have an opinion on vasectomies or TL's

Considering the two statements together, what do you think that opinion is?

God hates vasectomies and TL's unless a doctor says you will die if you don't get it done.

[_harmony]

Surrogate Motherhood:

Surrogate motherhood is strongly discouraged.

Really. I thought it was an excommunicatable offense. Wow.

[_bcspace]

Ah this is no big deal given the Church's fairly open position about birth control these days. And a lot of members just get the V or tied tubes anyway. Many members don't even know about this policy as they do not have the CHI.

That is one of the keys to understanding and it illustrates why nonmembers and exmos cannot possibly expect to be correct on this issue by themselves. It's because they have no experience with the context of living the gospel in the Church and/or have forgotten. There is an Ensign from the '70's that shows what the Church's concern about vasectomies (and tubals by extension) is. But have these people bothered to search it out? No.