Beastie's Signature

Post by **_Coach T** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:32 pm

No, I think it is more like that in the end all will be proven. Temporarily, you have some sort evidence (either contrived or made up) that seems to point to Joseph Smith being a fraud. My faith is based on everything washing out in the end. I have had questions before, but I've always found satisfactory answers. Seems simplistic, because it is.

Post by **_antishock8** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:13 pm

Coach T wrote:No, I think it is more like that in the end all will be proven. Temporarily, you have some sort evidence (either contrived or made up) that seems to point to Joseph Smith being a fraud. My faith is based on everything washing out in the end. I have had questions before, but I've always found satisfactory answers. Seems simplistic, because it is.

So, you just don't address the issue then? For example, the facsimiles. There can be no clearer proof that Joseph Smith mistranslated them. There is no harder evidence of fraud. How do you dismiss that in light of JFS's statement? Please re-read JFS's statement, juxtapose that against the Book of Abraham facsimiles and Joseph Smith's translation, and then explain to me how you reconcile the two?

Post by **_Canucklehead** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:44 pm

Coach T wrote:Temporarily, you have some sort evidence (either contrived or made up) that seems to point to Joseph Smith being a fraud.

Coach T, I don't mean this to be a personal attack on you, but I find your response to be typical of what I would call the brainwashing that is prominent in the LDS church.

Your statement is a perfect example of precisely how I used to think: if an issue regarding the church is vexatious, one can rest assured that the controversy is either contrived or made up (no doubt by some apostate/minion of Satan).

I find this kind of thinking common in my family members who are still TBM. They don't feel the need to look at the evidence for themselves, they're just happy to believe things such as that there's TONNES of evidence for the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica, or that anything controversial regarding Joseph Smith is a lie.

I understand that this is what a lot of people need to do in order to maintain their belief in something that's defined them for their entire lives. I don't begrudge them their belief, but these kinds of responses sure don't cut it for people who are genuinely questioning the church's foundational claims.

Edited to add: This kind of self-defence mechanism is by no means unique to Mormonism!!

Post by **_LifeOnaPlate** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:52 pm

Good questions. Unfortunately, I cannot answer you because in all my deceptions elsewhere on this board I have destroyed my credibility with the great antishock.

Post by **_Coach T** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:24 pm

Canucklehead,

You are assuming that I have never had a question regarding these subjects or have never studied them. You have just painted a caricature of the vapid, vaccuous eyed minion blindly following what they have been taught. I assure you that is not the case. I have read the pro's and con's of what antishock is saying and I have come to my own conclusion that what antishock is saying is false and sometime in the future I will be proven out. In the meantime, I am able to look further than the here and now and realize that through various sophistries, the enemy of truth and light will use any means necessary to thwart the work of the church. The fact that there are those who have lost their faith based on half truths and outright falsehoods (in my opinion) does nothing but reaffirm my beliefs. The main reason I am on this forum is to understand where and how folks become disenchanted so I can better serve them in my area of responsibility.

Post by **_antishock8** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:11 pm

Coach T wrote:Canucklehead,

You are assuming that I have never had a question regarding these subjects or have never studied them. *ping* You have just painted a caricature of the vapid, vaccuous eyed minion blindly following what they have been taught. *ping* I assure you that is not the case. I have read the pro's and con's *ping* of what antishock is saying and I have come to my own conclusion that what antishock is saying is false and sometime in the future I will be proven out. *ping* In the meantime, I am able to look further than the here and now *ping* and realize that through various sophistries, the enemy of truth and light will use any means necessary to thwart the work of the church *ping*. The fact that there are those who have lost their faith based on half truths and outright falsehoods *freudian slip* (in my opinion) does nothing but reaffirm my beliefs. *ping* The main reason I am on this forum is to understand where and how folks become disenchanted so I can better serve them in my area of responsibility *PING*.

How many lies can we spot in this post? God. To think I was once like this. This is sobering.

Post by **_Coach T** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:16 pm

Congratulations on your evolution. I hope it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling down deep inside.

Post by **_Canucklehead** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:51 pm

Coach T wrote:Canucklehead,

You are assuming that I have never had a question regarding these subjects or have never studied them. You have just painted a caricature of the vapid, vaccuous eyed minion blindly following what they have been taught. I assure you that is not the case. I have read the pro's and con's of what antishock is saying and I have come to my own conclusion that what antishock is saying is false and sometime in the future I will be proven out. In the meantime, I am able to look further than the here and now and realize that through various sophistries, the enemy of truth and light will use any means necessary to thwart the work of the church. The fact that there are those who have lost their faith based on half truths and outright falsehoods (in my opinion) does nothing but reaffirm my beliefs. The main reason I am on this forum is to understand where and how folks become disenchanted so I can better serve them in my area of responsibility.

I didn't mean to construe you personally as vapid or vacuous; I obviously don't know anything about you or your past (other than that you are a TBM who lives in Utah). My comment was merely intended to point out that I think that it's interesting that all serious criticisms of Joseph Smith or Church doctrine can easily be written off as "contrived or made up". For all his anger and crude manners, Antishock has pointed to one particular criticism which is potentially very damaging: in canonised scripture, the actual translation of the Egyptian facsimiles does not match up AT ALL with the translations that Smith purported to give via the power of God. I don't understand how this can be written off so cavalierly.

I have members of my family who cling to ideas such as the one you expressed, that all damaging criticisms can be easily written off, and who have NEVER looked into them whatsoever. You claim that you have looked into such issues, and I believe you. However, you should know that a great many Mormons simply hide their heads in the sand. That they do so (and have been directed to either overtly or obliquely by their leaders) points to a certain form of brainwashing.

Post by **_beastie** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:50 pm

In using the quote, I realize that believers don't think Joseph Smith is a fraud, of course. But I want them to understand WHY people who DO think Joseph Smith is a fraud might feel morally compelled to share that information.

Post by **_Coach T** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:12 pm

Canucklehead, Beastie,

This is the manner in which I would like to discuss these issues. AS8 and Tal's in your face macho BS style just doesn't wash and comes across as strained really. Like they have way more issues than the ones we are currently addressing. As far as the facsimile goes, I'm not a scholar on the glyphs. Send me a balanced article or link for me to read and then I'll do much better at talking about it. My knowledge on the subject is really not at your level I think.