My fear: being wrong about whether the church is true or not

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_The Nehor
_Emeritus
Posts: 11832
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am

Post by _The Nehor »

Coca Cola wrote:Oh, come on! This is the 21st century. A person's sexual orientation doesn't have anything to do with their intellect, painstaking research, or body of scholarly work.


No, but just because a work is about sexual orientation doesn't make the writer intelligent, a good researcher, or their work scholarly.

I should state I am neutral regarding the book itself as I have never read it but the knee-jerk defense makes as little sense as a knee-jerk attack.

I also don't see how what century it is has anything to do with it.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_LifeOnaPlate
_Emeritus
Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Coca Cola wrote:
LifeOnaPlate wrote:
Coca Cola wrote:
antishock8 wrote:

I know what name he will never think to list...


D. Michael Quinn?


Color me underimpressed by Same Sex Dynamics.



Oh, come on! This is the 21st century. A person's sexual orientation doesn't have anything to do with their intellect, painstaking research, or body of scholarly work.


? I thought the book was poorly executed. This has nothing to do with the author's sexual orientation. (Though perhaps it lent into his bias in the interesting use of sources, etc.) That isn't my point. It's poor scholarship in my opinion, and not because of homosexuality. Again: underimpressed.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:13 pm

Post by _Mister Scratch »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:? I thought the book was poorly executed. This has nothing to do with the author's sexual orientation. (Though perhaps it lent into his bias in the interesting use of sources, etc.) That isn't my point. It's poor scholarship in my opinion, and not because of homosexuality. Again: underimpressed.


I'd be interested in hearing your elaboration on this, LoaP. Having read the two major reviews of Same-sex Dynamics[i] in [i]FARMS Review, I came away with the same impression as Coca Cola---namely, that critics of it dislike it primarily because they feel that Quinn has some sort of a "pro-gay agenda." The critiques of Quinn's scholarship are flimsy to say the least. Perhaps the most egregious of these was the bit that attempted to brand him as being dishonest due to the way a photograph was cropped, or something like that. (Mitton and James were, I believe, the authors of that particular smear piece.)

In any case, this is all of a piece. The apologetic approach to Quinn's work has always been the same: brand him as dishonest/untrustworthy; express "disappointment"; fail to ever cite any real failing in scholarship; re-direct attention over towards the hackjob FROB articles; etc., etc.
_LifeOnaPlate
_Emeritus
Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Ms. Scratch:

Quinn acted the part of historian, but in an all-too-obvious manner. From my recollection (it's been a while) his selective use of sources and interpretation of data are lacing, he does not present an open-shut case. I will forgo a review for you, however, because I don't want to read through it again. I have other Quinn books and articles which I thought were adequate. But his SSD was weak in my opinion.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Pokatator
_Emeritus
Posts: 1417
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:38 pm

Post by _Pokatator »

Hi Coke

Welcome! I was about 35 when I couldn't stay in any longer. I had the doubts on and off for about a year and a half. I called the doubts the "what ifs". I would study and read, mostly Tanner materials and Fawn Brodie back then. The "what ifs" would surface and then I would learn more and they would go away. Then they would come back and continually the duration got shorter and the time in between got longer and then like magic one day I never got them any more.

That was well over 20 years ago. I have never looked back. No regrets. My first stop out was the Unitarians, I didn't stay there long. Did a lot of church hopping. I understand the God problem many mention here but I have parked as a Lutheran the last 14 years. I have doubts but I am comfortable and believe in no harm to anyone. It's all a journey.

All I can summarize with is learn and study and the doubts will go away. Knowledge is power.

Bless your journey,
Pokatator
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
bcspace
_Who Knows
_Emeritus
Posts: 2455
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:09 pm

Post by _Who Knows »

CaliforniaKid wrote:For me, a key step has been finding people who are making a similar journey. If you can gather even one or two such people around you, then it doesn't seem quite so lonely or crazy anymore...


Great point! It wasn't till my wife found a few 'exmo' friends, that she embraced the reality of what the church really is. She never knew how many exmos are really out there - yes - even here in utah county.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_LifeOnaPlate
_Emeritus
Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Indeed, fellowshipping the former Mormons is vital to their success.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Who Knows
_Emeritus
Posts: 2455
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:09 pm

Post by _Who Knows »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:Indeed, fellowshipping the former Mormons is vital to their success.


I think it's more like a 'sanity check'. You want to make sure you're not the only one thinking a certain way.

Same goes for people joining the church, i suppose.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_CaliforniaKid
_Emeritus
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 am

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:Indeed, fellowshipping the former Mormons is vital to their success.


It's not easy to take any journey alone, even if you think you're right. Imagine being the only Mormon on earth-- or at least feeling like you are-- and maybe you'll understand.
_Sethbag
_Emeritus
Posts: 6855
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:52 am

Re: My fear: being wrong about whether the church is true or

Post by _Sethbag »

Coca Cola wrote:Since we're all discussing fears...


My biggest fear is being wrong about whether or not the church is true and if God exists or not. I suppose this fear has been engrained in me on purpose, but it is very powerful.

And having come to the conclusion that the church is not true, but still not 100% sure (maybe I could be wrong), the consequences of my being wrong could be eternal and disastrous.

Same with God. I really want to believe in a God, but just don't know how it could be true, and if there is a God and I don't believe anymore -- then I'm in big trouble, right?

And if I decide to believe because I'm afraid I'll be wrong, then my fear is that I'll go through the rest of my life brainwashed and being controlled by others.

These are big fears. The evidence suggests it's not true - but what if it is?

Does anyone else struggle with these fears?

No. I don't struggle with fears like that because I know I believe the way I do for very, very good, supportable, rational reasons, and that the believers in God and the church can only summon irrational, unfounded beliefs based on faith, when that faith flies in the very face of contrary evidence. That being the case, I must believe that if there is a God, and he set up the Mormon church after all, then he's got to understand why I made my choices and believed what I believed, and be OK with it. And if it doesn't, then he's a capricious asshole prick of a God, and I don't know how I could possibly live my life to take account of all the things such a capricious God might or might not do.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Post Reply