Pre-existence?

[_Moniker]

A few days ago I was told, on this board, that I was probably held back in the pre-existence. I surmised this wasn't something that one would wish for...

I saw another poster mention being "valiant" in the pre-existence.

So, what's going on in the pre-existence that gives some the "valiant" title and where others are "held back"? Are these the spirits? So, how can a spirit be valiant? Or if they're held back (I'm assuming they're naughty -- not quite uber special???) why is this so? I thought the spirits (according to abman) didn't really have any traits until they were meshed with their human host on earth and then took on their qualities.

I'm so confused. Again!

[_John Larsen]

My patriotical blessing says that I am special today because I was one of the faithful spirits who escorted Satan out of God's presence. Choke on that you held back sinners!

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Pre-existence is a misnomer (sometimes used even by LDS leaders.) Premortal life, antemortal existence, etc. are more accurate terms.

[_asbestosman]

We don't know much about the pre-mortal world of spirits. What we know is that while we were there, Heavenly Father presented His plan and Satan presented his plan. Everyone who was born chose God's plan.

As for valiant vs less-valiant, I do not have as much information. We are told that some LDS leaders were prepared for their roles before they were born. As to how valiant one was, I usually understand that to mean how much support one placed behind God's plan and did not consider Satan's alternative.

[_Coca Cola]

A few days ago I was told, on this board, that I was probably held back in the pre-existence. I surmised this wasn't something that one would wish for...

I saw another poster mention being "valiant" in the pre-existence.

So, what's going on in the pre-existence that gives some the "valiant" title and where others are "held back"? Are these the spirits? So, how can a spirit be valiant? Or if they're held back (I'm assuming they're naughty -- not quite uber special???) why is this so? I thought the spirits (according to abman) didn't really have any traits until they were meshed with their human host on earth and then took on their qualities.

I'm so confused. Again!

We are taught that we have always lived, and that we are begotton spirit children of God. We were actually born as spirits. (How can we be born and yet have always lived????? go figure) Anyway, in the pre-mortal life or pre-existence there was a war in heaven between those followers of Christ, those who chose to follow Satan, and those who were fence-sitters. Satan and 1/3 of the hosts of heaven were cast out and were not allowed to have bodies - ever. They do everything they can to tempt and try us here on earth, because they want us to fail our earthly test.

Those who chose to follow Christ were given the opportunity to be born on earth and obtain a mortal body.

Some spirits in heaven were more righteous and obedient than others. Christ chose his leaders there, according to the PofGP, "these will I make my leaders."

A patriarchal blessing will often tell people about their pre-mortal life. Mine says that I "shouted for joy" after the plan of salvation was explained to me, that I was valiant, and that I waited throughout the eternities for the chance to obtain a mortal body.

Some blessings tell people about their participation in the war on heaven.

Apparently, those born into better situations in this life earned it by their obedience in "their first estate." In other words, a person born into the comforts of a middle class home in the U.S. might have been more valiant than someone born in a rural village in central Africa.

Perhaps some will argue that this is not "official" church doctrine, but it is what I have been taught my whole life.

[_Sethbag]

We don't know much about the pre-mortal world of spirits.

There's a very good reason for that. It's because the jackasses who first invented the concept and convinced others to believe in it are dead and gone, and those who followed didn't realize that they should be making it up as they went along, so instead they're living with "we don't know very much about that" and waiting, in vain, for that day when they finally, after all these centuries/decades/millenia, "receive further light and knowledge."

What we know is that while we were there, Heavenly Father presented His plan and Satan presented his plan. Everyone who was born chose God's plan.

This is ridiculous, and not even consistent with the rest of Mormon theology, and you know it. Apparently you don't care, and sweep the inconsistency under the rug, or allow that it may seem inconsistent, but if we knew more about it (there's that thing again), we'd find that it wasn't really inconsistent after all.

It's inconsistent because it's impossible. According to LDS theology, the Celestial Kingdom operates by certain laws, and only those who obey those laws can possibly exist there. God's plan, which was dictated by the requirements of the laws the Celestial Kingdom is supposed to be governed by, was therefor the only possible plan, and Satan's plan, which contradicted the fundamental laws of the Celestial Kingdom, was therefor impossible.

And everyone would have known this, particularly if we were aware of how Elohim himself had become a God (by obeying his Father in Heaven's plan, which just happened to be exactly the same as the one he was now offering, duh).

So, not only was Satan's plan impossible, and it never could have worked even if 100% of the spirits opted to follow it, but we all would have known this, because we would have had the example of the plans every single other God had used to become God, all the way down.

This is all made up. Besides, imagine this. Satan rebels against God. What is the first law of Heaven, according to Joseph Smith? Obedience. Mormon theology says that it is not possible to exist in the Celestial Kingdom if one does not obey the laws that rule that kingdom. Obedience to one's God is part of that fundamental law. So, Satan rebels against God, how could there possible be a "war"? How could it require certain spirits to "escort" Satan from God's presence. Once Satan disobeyed, should he not have simply disappeared from the Celestial Kingdom (and "fallen" to some lower kingdom) as soon as his presence, by disobeying the laws that govern the kingdom, became impossible?

Oh, Seth, you're thinking too much.

Duh. Silly me.

As for valiant vs less-valiant, I do not have as much information. We are told that some LDS leaders were prepared for their roles before they were born. As to how valiant one was, I usually understand that to mean how much support one placed behind God's plan and did not consider Satan's alternative.

You've got plenty of information that you'd rather not have, actually. Recall how many Prophets, Seers, and Revelators were perfectly willing to explain that black people, and others born into less affluent situations than white Americans, were said to have been born into situations they deserved based on their level of valiance in the pre-existence. Chinese were mentioned as being thus disadvantaged based on merit (or lack thereof), in addition to the blacks.

If you take away all the silly, racist crap that past prophets and apostles taught about the pre-existence, you're left without much to talk about, aren't you? There's really nothing there. It's just mythology. It's like wondering about the true nature of the relationship between Aphrodite and Hephaestus. Or between Hera and Zeus.

"We don't know much about the relationship between Hera and Zeus. We're waiting for further light and knowledge on the subject."

Don't hold your breath.

[_asbestosman]

Were we in the Celestial Kingdom before we were born?

I thought Satan rebelled out of pride despite knowing that he would be cast out for his plan.

Lucky for me, the racist crap about pre-mortal valiance didn't make it to the scriptures.

[_Mister Scratch]

A few days ago I was told, on this board, that I was probably held back in the pre-existence. I surmised this wasn't something that one would wish for...

I saw another poster mention being "valiant" in the pre-existence.

So, what's going on in the pre-existence that gives some the "valiant" title and where others are "held back"? Are these the spirits? So, how can a spirit be valiant? Or if they're held back (I'm assuming they're naughty -- not quite uber special???) why is this so? I thought the spirits (according to abman) didn't really have any traits until they were meshed with their human host on earth and then took on their qualities.

I'm so confused. Again!

The story goes that there were three sets of spirits in the pre-existence: those who chose to follow Jesus, those who chose to follow Lucifer, and those who chose to remain neutral. The followers of Christ were the "valiant" ones; the followers of Satan were evil, and were denied bodies of flesh and blood; and the neutral ones, according to some apologists, were cursed with black skin.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Premortality takes place in the Celestial Kingdom? This is news to me.

[_John Larsen]

Premortality takes place in the Celestial Kingdom? This is news to me.

Since we were with God and the location of exalted beings is the Celestial Kingdom, it naturally follows.