Willful Ignorance of Evolution?

Post by **_The Dude** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:32 pm

dartagnan wrote:Even if we just say apes and man came from the same source, one needs to explain why humans evolved into humans whereas apes stayed the same.

Apes didn't stay the same.

Post by **_Moniker** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:44 pm

dartagnan wrote:I didn't say I understand it based on one photo.

This photo is most likely to be found in every textbook that talks on the subject. So clearly it intends to teach something. So, what is?

I'm just saying the "we came from apes" assumption is a natural one to make and it is usually taken for granted. Even if we just say apes and man came from the same source, one needs to explain why humans evolved into humans whereas apes stayed the same.

My remark wasn't directed at you. I didn't think you were relying on that illustration to understand evolution. Yet, there are those that do this -- I've conversed with them on the net.

We did evolve from an ape-like ancestor -- yet, modern apes are not what we evolved from. I think someone looking at that illustration could jump to that conclusion even though it's faulty. I think, though, when you enter into a debate (those that do so -- not you) would know a bit more about the theory, though, then to start out with the old line that we evolved from apes. No, we didn't.

About explanations. If there are those interested in learning about the theory there is google, and there are PLENTY of books. If someone wishes to tell me why evolution is faulty they need to do a bit more homework (rather than relying on an illustration). Surely that's not too much to ask?

Post by **_Some Schmo** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:48 pm

The Dude wrote:
dartagnan wrote:Even if we just say apes and man came from the same source, one needs to explain why humans evolved into humans whereas apes stayed the same.

Apes didn't stay the same.

LOL... Thanks Dude.

I rest my case.

Post by **_dartagnan** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:50 pm

Apes didn't stay the same.

How do we know?

And if apes and humans all come from the same source, what prevented the current species of apes from evolving into humans? I'm trying to understand the logic here.

Post by **_Mister Scratch** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:09 pm

dartagnan wrote:
Apes didn't stay the same.

How do we know?

And if apes and humans all come from the same source, what prevented the current species of apes from evolving into humans? I'm trying to understand the logic here.

I am really at best only a dilettante on this subject matter, but I believe the basic principle is akin to the differences one can find amongst any given human couple's children. E.g., suppose a dark-haired woman is married to a light-haired man. Their kids might have all kinds of variations in terms of hair color. Perhaps one of the kids might surprise everyone and wind up with red hair.

If you were to extrapolate this process over many hundreds of thousands of years, it starts to make sense how these deviations might have occurred. (At least that is my understanding of the underlying logic.)

Post by **_silentkid** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:21 pm

dartagnan wrote:
Apes didn't stay the same.

How do we know?

And if apes and humans all come from the same source, what prevented the current species of apes from evolving into humans? I'm trying to understand the logic here.

Why don't all fish look like sharks if they shared a common ancestor?

Natural selection acts on different populations in different ways. It does so without an end result in mind. You need to start at the population level, take into account random genetic mutations, systems of mating, genetic drift, gene flow, and the effect of selection on that population. You need to account for forces that drive speciation.

Post by **_The Dude** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:28 pm

dartagnan wrote:
Apes didn't stay the same.

How do we know?

To answer, I need to understand which ape we are speaking about. There are two speices of chimps, pan trogdolytes and pan paniscus. Plus two species of gorilla, two speices of orangutan, and about a dozen species of gibbon -- these are all classified as apes. In the cartoon version of evolution, from which one of these "apes" did humans evolve?

And if apes and humans all come from the same source, what prevented the current species of apes from evolving into humans? I'm trying to understand the logic here.

I can't answer your non sequitur.

What prevents us from evolving into chimpanzees? Can't answer it? Then evolution must be false! LOL

Post by **_Tarski** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:36 pm

dartagnan wrote:
Apes didn't stay the same.

How do we know?

And if apes and humans all come from the same source, what prevented the current species of apes from evolving into humans? I'm trying to understand the logic here.

Are you serious?

Because if you are, I can explain it to you in three steps.

Post by **_moksha** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:52 pm

Consider this:

Scientist at Work | Francisco J. Ayala
Roving Defender of Evolution, and of Room for God

By CORNELIA DEAN
Published: April 29, 2008

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/29/science/29prof.html?_r=1&ref=science&oref=slogin

Post by **_Who Knows** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:02 pm

dartagnan wrote:
Apes didn't stay the same.

How do we know?

And if apes and humans all come from the same source, what prevented the current species of apes from evolving into humans? I'm trying to understand the logic here.

I know diddly-squat on all this as well. ;)

I just read this site though:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/libra ... cat02.html

and i think i've got a general understanding of what they're talking about now.