Pre-existence?

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Pre-existence is a misnomer (sometimes used even by LDS leaders.) Premortal life, antemortal existence, etc. are more accurate terms.

How is it more accurate if you just use synonyms?

This says a lot.


With that, I am off!

Go Jazz.

[_John Larsen]

Premortality takes place in the Celestial Kingdom? This is news to me.

Since we were with God and the location of exalted beings is the Celestial Kingdom, it naturally follows.

No it doesn't. The Kingdoms represent degrees of glory.

The endless insistence by apologists that nothing logically follows from anything else is really quite annoying. It my make apologists feel clever but it makes them look like 4 year olds.

A 4-year-old who is looking forward to pizza, your treat, incidentally.

I'm still in, but pizza?

[_Moniker]

I'm still confused.



I don't think I'm the only one....

[_Bond...James Bond]

I'm still confused.



I don't think I'm the only one....

Is this one of those questions like what was before the Big Bang?

When these type discussions come up it appears to me to be Chicken and egg questions?

[_Inconceivable]

Here Mon, I can help:

3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.
4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared—

(Book of Mormon | Alma 13:3 - 5)


But whatever.

I've always had great difficulty that there were 1/3 that chose greater evil than say, Joseph Mengalay (sp), Stalin, Hitler, child molestor/murderers, Polpot, Charles Manson, Herod..

Imagine, me and Polpot (and you) were foxhole buddies in that great war. Makes me wonder if there was much fragging going on.

Some war. What were they fighting for? Same thing?

[_Sethbag]

Are you really trying to argue about this? To what end? Because you think, perhaps, it might get your made-up theology out of a bit of an intellectual jam?

"Presence of God" and "Celestial Kingdom" are not synonymous. You infer that they are, but there are no sources suggesting that such is explicitly the case. You don't believe either of them exist to begin with.

It is bog-standard LDS doctrine, since the early days, right up until this very second (and, I must note, you're not authorized to change it or to interpret it to suit your whim) that we:

1) lived with God before we were born, as his spirit offspring

2) can return (there's that word again) to live with him again (as in, just like we used to, except with perfected bodies, and as his priests and kings)

LDS believe that God lives in the Celestial Kingdom. If we lived with God, as spirits, before we were born, then we too lived in the Celestial Kingdom. If we can return to live with God again, and the place to which we are to return is the Celestial Kingdom, then it follows that we lived in the Celestial Kingdom as spirits.

You're right, I don't believe any of this. It's gibberish. Arguing about where we lived as spirits is, as Hitchens might say, really just white noise. But it's still LDS theology, and you're twisting and turning to try to get out of the intellectual jam that contradictory and nonsensical LDS theology puts you in.

Free yourself, LOAP. I know you will. You got into this apologetics crap way too early in life. You're a smart enough guy, and I predict, with 99.9% confidence, that within five to ten years you won't be able to take it anymore, and you'll give up apologizing for this crap. It will happen. I have half a mind to send you my name and phone number, and email address, just so that when you finally do, you'll have at least one person you can turn to who will understand what you're going through.

[_Moniker]

A few days ago I was told, on this board, that I was probably held back in the pre-existence. I surmised this wasn't something that one would wish for...

I saw another poster mention being "valiant" in the pre-existence.

So, what's going on in the pre-existence that gives some the "valiant" title and where others are "held back"? Are these the spirits? So, how can a spirit be valiant? Or if they're held back (I'm assuming they're naughty -- not quite uber special???) why is this so? I thought the spirits (according to abman) didn't really have any traits until they were meshed with their human host on earth and then took on their qualities.

I'm so confused. Again!

We are taught that we have always lived, and that we are begotton spirit children of God. We were actually born as spirits. (How can we be born and yet have always lived????? go figure) Anyway, in the pre-mortal life or pre-existence there was a war in heaven between those followers of Christ, those who chose to follow Satan, and those who were fence-sitters. Satan and 1/3 of the hosts of heaven were cast out and were not allowed to have bodies - ever. They do everything they can to tempt and try us here on earth, because they want us to fail our earthly test.

Those who chose to follow Christ were given the opportunity to be born on earth and obtain a mortal body.

Some spirits in heaven were more righteous and obedient than others. Christ chose his leaders there, according to the PofGP, "these will I make my leaders."

A patriarchal blessing will often tell people about their pre-mortal life. Mine says that I "shouted for joy" after the plan of salvation was explained to me, that I was valiant, and that I waited throughout the eternities for the chance to obtain a mortal body.

Some blessings tell people about their participation in the war on heaven.

Apparently, those born into better situations in this life earned it by their obedience in "their first estate." In other words, a person born into the comforts of a middle class home in the U.S. might have been more valiant than someone born in a rural village in central Africa.

Perhaps some will argue that this is not "official" church doctrine, but it is what I have been taught my whole life.

Thanks for the description, coca cola! :)

Is this process repeated for all new worlds? When LDS get their own world do they go through the exact same thing all over again?

[_Moniker]

Here Mon, I can help:

3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.
4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared—

(Book of Mormon | Alma 13:3 - 5)


But whatever.

I've always had great difficulty that there were 1/3 that chose greater evil than say, Joseph Mengalay (sp), Stalin, Hitler, child molestor/murderers, Polpot, Charles Manson, Herod..

Imagine, me and Polpot (and you) were foxhole buddies in that great war. Makes me wonder if there was much fragging going on.

Some war. What were they fighting for? Same thing?

Good point about the evil that actually were good enough to mesh with a human host. Those that stayed behind must have been quite evil!

I just don't understand how the spirits had minds, thoughts, etc... BEFORE they were attached to a human host. So, the spirit creates the human as much as the human creates the spirit? I just can't get that to mesh in my mind.

[_Inconceivable]

Good point about the evil that actually were good enough to mesh with a human host. Those that stayed behind must have been quite evil!

I just don't understand how the spirits had minds, thoughts, etc... BEFORE they were attached to a human host. So, the spirit creates the human as much as the human creates the spirit? I just can't get that to mesh in my mind.

Maybe we truly are mostly a product of our environment. I mean, how bad could Polpot have been if he were raised by Beaver Cleaver's parents?

It leads me to muse that perhaps we do reincarnate and experience a life in many cultures throughout history to develop perspective, empathy and humanity - something like the Hindu believe as attaining self actuallization. That "walking in another's mocasins" thing. Perhaps our preexistance was previous to several or many former lives. Probably worth a new thread so as not to derail.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Premortality takes place in the Celestial Kingdom? This is news to me.

Since we were with God and the location of exalted beings is the Celestial Kingdom, it naturally follows.

No it doesn't. The Kingdoms represent degrees of glory.

The endless insistence by apologists that nothing logically follows from anything else is really quite annoying. It my make apologists feel clever but it makes them look like 4 year olds.

A 4-year-old who is looking forward to pizza, your treat, incidentally.

I'm still in, but pizza?

You don't like pizza? Who doesn't like pizza? Maybe café Rio or something then? Is there a Bajio's?