Pre-existence?

[_LifeOnaPlate]

LDS believe that God lives in the Celestial Kingdom. If we lived with God, as spirits, before we were born, then we too lived in the Celestial Kingdom. If we can return to live with God again, and the place to which we are to return is the Celestial Kingdom, then it follows that we lived in the Celestial Kingdom as spirits.

If the Celestial Kingdom represents an actual degree of glory (a condition as much as a place) they are not the same. I don't know why this is so difficult for you.

You're right, I don't believe any of this. It's gibberish. Arguing about where we lived as spirits is, as Hitchens might say, really just white noise. But it's still LDS theology, and you're twisting and turning to try to get out of the intellectual jam that contradictory and nonsensical LDS theology puts you in.

Hitchens is an ass.

Free yourself, LOAP. I know you will. You got into this apologetics crap way too early in life. You're a smart enough guy, and I predict, with 99.9% confidence, that within five to ten years you won't be able to take it anymore, and you'll give up apologizing for this crap. It will happen. I have half a mind to send you my name and phone number, and email address, just so that when you finally do, you'll have at least one person you can turn to who will understand what you're going through.

Yes, and it is also inevitable that there is a day coming when you will undoubtedly want to call me up, a la Jacob Marley, and take back all your rants and shake your chains at me in warning.

[_Inconceivable]

LDS believe that God lives in the Celestial Kingdom. If we lived with God, as spirits, before we were born, then we too lived in the Celestial Kingdom. If we can return to live with God again, and the place to which we are to return is the Celestial Kingdom, then it follows that we lived in the Celestial Kingdom as spirits.

If the Celestial Kingdom represents an actual degree of glory (a condition as much as a place) they are not the same. I don't know why this is so difficult for you.

Loap,

Is not your heavenly mother Celestial? Maybe not. But if She is (and then She is a God too, right?), it stands to reason you were procreated in a Celestial state even if they were vacationing on a beach in a Telestial world when you were concieved.

Do you have more than one home to return to? no. Where is home? What is home? hmm..


Good points, Sethbag (including offering your name and number to Loap. I wish I had someone to share my grief with when I had my epiphany).

[_LifeOnaPlate]

LDS believe that God lives in the Celestial Kingdom. If we lived with God, as spirits, before we were born, then we too lived in the Celestial Kingdom. If we can return to live with God again, and the place to which we are to return is the Celestial Kingdom, then it follows that we lived in the Celestial Kingdom as spirits.

If the Celestial Kingdom represents an actual degree of glory (a condition as much as a place) they are not the same. I don't know why this is so difficult for you.

Loap,

Is not your heavenly mother Celestial? Maybe not. But if She is (and then She is a God too, right?), it stands to reason you were procreated in a Celestial state even if they were vacationing on a beach in a Telestial world when you were concieved.

Do you have more than one home to return to? no. Where is home? What is home? hmm..


Good points, Sethbag (including offering your name and number to Loap. I wish I had someone to share my grief with when I had my epiphany).

I believe this post is quite illustrative as to what most interests you.

[_harmony]

A few days ago I was told, on this board, that I was probably held back in the pre-existence. I surmised this wasn't something that one would wish for...

I saw another poster mention being "valiant" in the pre-existence.

So, what's going on in the pre-existence that gives some the "valiant" title and where others are "held back"? Are these the spirits? So, how can a spirit be valiant? Or if they're held back (I'm assuming they're naughty -- not quite uber special???) why is this so? I thought the spirits (according to abman) didn't really have any traits until they were meshed with their human host on earth and then took on their qualities.

I'm so confused. Again!

To be "held back" is not a bad thing, like being held back a grade in school. The most valient, the most elite of the spirits are supposed to be born in the last days, held back to be born when God would need them the most, so that makes you a pretty special person.

[_asbestosman]

I have half a mind to send you my name and phone number, and email address, just so that when you finally do, you'll have at least one person you can turn to who will understand what you're going through.

What about Jason Bourne?

[_Inconceivable]

Loap,

Is not your heavenly mother Celestial? Maybe not. But if She is (and then She is a God too, right?), it stands to reason you were procreated in a Celestial state even if they were vacationing on a beach in a Telestial world when you were concieved.

Do you have more than one home to return to? no. Where is home? What is home? hmm..


Good points, Sethbag (including offering your name and number to Loap. I wish I had someone to share my grief with when I had my epiphany).

I believe this post is quite illustrative as to what most interests you.

I don't understand what you are trying to convey here. Give it another try?

[_Gazelam]

Moni,

The best source we have for the pre-existence is from Abraham Chp.3. Here si the core of the scripture there:

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second cestate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

[_Roger Morrison]

Monicker, Monicker, Monicker you do seem to take LDSisms soooo, toooo seriously. Or do you really? (I think not. Right?) You're just strummming their strings to elicit a litany from their Book of FAQ? (I hope?) It is interesting to read the 'ready responses' from those well-versed. That it is all supposition and imaginings seems to not distract from the recitations of those skilled in their craft.

The more i read their explanations, the harder is it to believe... Warm regards, Roger

[_Gazelam]

Further reading on the war in heaven prior to our coming to earth from Moses chp.4. This ties in to those last two verses from Abraham..

1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

Notice all the personal pronouns in the first verse... insight into the attitude problem.

[_harmony]

Book of Abraham. 'Nuff said.