Willful Ignorance of Evolution?

[_Moniker]

Hey, beastie, thanks for posting that list! There are some there I need to read!

You would probably like Darwin's Dangerous Idea by Dennett, too.

[_Tarski]

Tarski,

Dennett is on the fringe when it comes to his functionalistic position that computers can become conscious entities. Functionalism is not the popular position in scholarship and most do not follow his ideas and explanations for consciousness, no matter how "important" you think he is for pushing them. Searle is hardly Dennett's only critic. .

Wel, I think yiou are just getting that impression from reading the authors you do.
saying that consciousness is a mystery in Dawkins sense is just to say that there are lots of details to work out about why we have they intuitions we do. Dawkins actually agrees with Dennett.
I have never met a personally met a physicist or biologist that didn't think that consciousnes was due to the brain. But that doesn't sell books so guess what you end up seeing in barnes and nobles? People love a mystery more than anything else. They are guilty of this in quantum mechaincs too.

In any case, we are talking about evolution. This a biology question. Dennett explains the position. You need to understand the position.

By the way, if we were talking about consciousness you would still definitely have to read Dennett. Do you just read those who oppose a view in order to understand it?
It does sound like your objections are taken right from the pages of AnswersinGenesis.

You have to read about a science or philosophy firstly from the proponets and experts themselves--don't immediately go to the opposition and negative book reiews (I made that mistake re Dennett 10 years ago).

Anyway, we are talking about biology and that is a physical theory. We really are animals with genes and organd and hereditiy.

So lets get back to evolution.

Do you now understand why asking why the modern apes aren't turning into humans doesn't make sense in light of what the theorey really claims?



There is no linear progress marching toward any particular form or body plan. The fact that modern apes are similar to us (also apes) is because we recently diverged. We will only continue to diverge although they may stumble upon some of the same tricks we have and visa versa if the environment for us changes--we may need more furr in the future after all or some totally new adaptation. we may lose something that now seems really advanced and human to us. It will be imperceptibly slow and there will be branching so in a sense it won't even be "us".
But lets concentrate on what did happen not on what might happen.

I notice that as soon as one begins to effectly explain evolution to someone and overcome thier objections they move to the question of abiogenesis.
Lets not change the subject just yet. What evolution does is explain diversity and common decent.
We must start with replicators to make it work. How the replicators got there is further back in history and harder to be sure about yet. We may never know the details just like we may never know how tall Jesus was or who the very fist person to think of atoms was and whether they we siting or standing when they thought of it.
We can only note that no one has come up with a logical obstruction to the development of simple replicators by random combination. So the question is why not?

[_Moniker]

And what is so wrong with going to a message forum where you can converse with experts on the subject? Sure it is called a "Mormon" forum, but since when do any of us really talk about Mormonism anymore? There are scientists on this forum who can offer intelligent responses to my questions (no, not you) and that is what I was shooting for. Are you upset because you feel left out? You don't have the audacity to step out of line and ask some challenging questions of your own? Oh well.

I rarely ask challenging questions -- I do look to see where there are gaps in my understanding and take note of this. I do this all the time on this board. I burn up my half.com and amazon accounts -- seriously.. I have a problem. :)

I think some of the frustration may come into play because there are just some core fundamentals of the theory to understand that are rather simple to grasp in evolutionary theory. Once you get those it can be built upon -- building blocks, if you will.

I think the idea that to criticize the theory one must first have a grasp of it isn't really too much to ask. I wouldn't even know how or where to begin to criticize the theory -- in all actuality what I understand of it (from watching programs, books, asking people in the know, websites, etc...) it actually makes perfect sense to me. It just all sort of snapped into place when I started learning about it and looking for the evidence that was there to support it. I'm actually fairly fascinated with it and have been for just about 2 years now.

Perhaps it's that I don't come from a theist background that I don't think of criticisms? I'm not certain -- I just know that many theists actually do accept the theory or are evolutionary biologists themselves.

[_Tarski]

One tiny tiny super simplified view of the analogy for tree of life:

http://ridge.icu.ac.jp/gen-ed/classif-g ... l-tree.gif

and a labeled tree (also simplified)

http://www.ecotao.com/holism/evosummary.gif

[_beastie]

Yeah, moniker, I've been meaning to read that one.

If I searched through my entire house, including the basement which is full of books, I bet I could find even more. Evolution was my reading hobby prior to ancient Mesosamerica. And here's three more I missed:

The Handicap Principle: A Missing Piece of Darwin's Puzzle by Amotz and Avishag Zahavi
(this is excellent)

The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal by Jared Diamond

The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins

My number one favorite book from my list is Robert Wright's The Moral Animal. That book moved me to tears, and I was so captured by it that I read it twice in a row.

Dawkins is actually quite poetic, as well. He has some beautiful prose in The Ancestor's Tale (long but worth it, and probably THE book dart should read). Listen to this (from the conclusion of the book)

If, as returning host, I reflect on the whole pilgrimage of which I have been a grateful part, my overwhelming reaction is one of amazement. Amazement not only at the extravaganza of details that we have seen; amazement, too, at the very fact that there are any such details to be had, on any planet. The universe could so easily have remained lifeless and simple – just physics and chemistry, just the scattered dust of the cosmic explosion that gave birth to time and space. The fact that it did not – the fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing – is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice. And even that is not the end of the matter. Not only did evolution happen: it eventually led to beings capable of comprehending the process, and even of comprehending the process by which they comprehend it.

I guess it's a sign of my true geekdom that I find this paragraph startling beautiful, and the story behind it more moving than any religious myth could possibly hope to be.

(by the way, I have a real amazon problem, too. But several months ago I promised myself I would not order another book until I read EVERY SINGLE one I already bought... and am still not done. But mother's day is coming up, and my kids know the one thing I always want... another book)

[_The Dude]

Well I can see this is getting out of hand. I got every amateur and his dog barking at me from the sidelines as usual.

No me. I'm having more fun posting images of Adolf Hitler on MADB. Apparently Godwin's wall of separation between good and hilariously bad argument has come down and now it's the wild west over there.

(by the way, that Ken Miller book is a good one. I highly recommend it for your basic evolution-literacy needs.)

[_beastie]

No me. I'm having more fun posting images of Adolf Hitler on MADB. Apparently Godwin's wall of separation between good and hilariously bad argument has come down and now it's the wild west over there.

You're not actually going to make us search through threads for this, are you? Come on, have mercy, give us a title, at least.

[_Moniker]

The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal by Jared Diamond

I just finished this book! Ha! I really like all of Jared Diamond's books. Guns, Germs, & Steel hooked me on him. :)

My number one favorite book from my list is Robert Wright's The Moral Animal. That book moved me to tears, and I was so captured by it that I read it twice in a row.

I did order that after you mentioned it to me, some time ago, and just haven't read it. I need to.

If, as returning host, I reflect on the whole pilgrimage of which I have been a grateful part, my overwhelming reaction is one of amazement. Amazement not only at the extravaganza of details that we have seen; amazement, too, at the very fact that there are any such details to be had, on any planet. The universe could so easily have remained lifeless and simple – just physics and chemistry, just the scattered dust of the cosmic explosion that gave birth to time and space. The fact that it did not – the fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing – is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice. And even that is not the end of the matter. Not only did evolution happen: it eventually led to beings capable of comprehending the process, and even of comprehending the process by which they comprehend it.

I guess it's a sign of my true geekdom that I find this paragraph startling beautiful, and the story behind it more moving than any religious myth could possibly hope to be.

Well, I'm a geek right with ya! I was actually thinking about this earlier today and marveling at the wonders of our world in the present state and what the future may hold. It's truly remarkable and once I think upon the wonder of evolution religious miracles actually pale in comparison.

(by the way, I have a real amazon problem, too. But several months ago I promised myself I would not order another book until I read EVERY SINGLE one I already bought... and am still not done. But mother's day is coming up, and my kids know the one thing I always want... another book)

I need to make that promise, too.

Tomorrow. ;)

[_Moniker]

Here's the thread at MAD, beastie.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 1208419791

[_The Dude]

No me. I'm having more fun posting images of Adolf Hitler on MADB. Apparently Godwin's wall of separation between good and hilariously bad argument has come down and now it's the wild west over there.

You're not actually going to make us search through threads for this, are you? Come on, have mercy, give us a title, at least.

See Tarski's thread about Ben Stein's movie having the "desired effect".