Stake Pres. Ditches Ethics to Smear Tal B.

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_cksalmon
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Post by _cksalmon »

Trevor wrote:Keyes strikes me as a man who is covering his ass. It may be that Tal read a little more into his SP's attempts at empathy than he should have, but I have no doubt that Keyes, on his part, expressed enough substantive doubt to confirm Tal's mounting suspicions. I think Keyes tried to look for common ground by sharing his own doubts, and then it backfired on him. Now, he has been made to look like a closet doubter, because Tal made the session public, and so he has to "set the record straight" by minimizing what he did in fact say. His reportage is actually quite vague. He never provides a detailed account of what happened, whereas Tal's story is pretty specific. The addition of the wife's story does nothing to support the credibility of the husband's.

I really don't see the damning refutation of Tal's credibility that others see in this.


If I were half as articulate as Trevor (minus the "ass"), I might have written something like this.

This is how the situation strikes me as well, but I certainly can't know for sure.

Putting on my rank speculation hat (don't bet any money on this), I'd merely opine that Keyes likely sought advice from other, more-experienced, Saints as to how to publicly counter Tal's recollections. Goodness knows that some LDS apologists have needed to seek, generally in the presence of a welcoming audience, more palatable do-overs with regard to their own public comments.

Chris
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

mentalgymnast wrote:
skippy the dead wrote:Here's a question for the peanut gallery (that means everybody): Does the location of the "open letter" make a difference in your evaluation of the situation? Would your evaluation have been different if the stake president had posted his reply directly to Tal in the thread in question (regardless of how he had heard of it)?

For me, I think having the open letter posted on a FAIR blog seems intended only to make a point with respect to Tal (I.e., to damage his credibility), and not as an honest response to him. For what that's worth.


Tal's story in one form or another is posted in multiple locations if I remember correctly. For the SP to cover the bases he may have felt he needed to post his response on a major forum so that it will/would leak out to the other forums where Tal's story is repeated.

Limiting his response to this forum and to the thread that I initiated would have limited the scope of influence as it relates to his rebuttal of Tal's remarks . Putting it on the FAIR blog helps to broaden that scope of influence.



Of course, this once again begs the question of why the remarks needed "rebutting" in the first place.
_skippy the dead
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Post by _skippy the dead »

mentalgymnast wrote:Tal's story in one form or another is posted in multiple locations if I remember correctly. For the SP to cover the bases he may have felt he needed to post his response on a major forum so that it will/would leak out to the other forums where Tal's story is repeated.

The FAIR blog is a "major forum". Um, not.

mentalgymnast wrote:Limiting his response to this forum and to the thread that I initiated would have limited the scope of influence as it relates to his rebuttal of Tal's remarks . Putting it on the FAIR blog helps to broaden that scope of influence.

How so?

mentalgymnast wrote:After all, you guys found it, right?


Only after Juliann triumphantly dragged the post onto MAD.
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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Man, I was so close to replying when I read this nonsense about Keyes' dishonesty, which is also not what I claimed.


Prior to this, Trevor opined:

Keyes strikes me as a man who is covering his ass. It may be that Tal read a little more into his SP's attempts at empathy than he should have, but I have no doubt that Keyes, on his part, expressed enough substantive doubt to confirm Tal's mounting suspicions. I think Keyes tried to look for common ground by sharing his own doubts, and then it backfired on him. Now, he has been made to look like a closet doubter, because Tal made the session public, and so he has to "set the record straight" by minimizing what he did in fact say. His reportage is actually quite vague. He never provides a detailed account of what happened, whereas Tal's story is pretty specific. The addition of the wife's story does nothing to support the credibility of the husband's.



1. If you did not, in essence, call him a liar here, what are you claiming about him?

2. Upon what criteria do you make such an assertion?
Last edited by Dr. Sunstoned on Fri May 02, 2008 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by _Coggins7 »

This is how the situation strikes me as well, but I certainly can't know for sure.




Hmmm. I wonder why it "strikes" you this way, but doesn't strike others this way at all?
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Man, I was so close to replying when I read this nonsense about Keyes' dishonesty, which is also not what I claimed.



I don't think you'll ever respond clearly and succinctly to this question, any more than Scratch ever responds clearly and succinctly to anything he's asked regarding his psychological biases, fixations, and emotion based frothings regarding the Church.

But the question does have to be asked for argument's sake, doesn't it?
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_mentalgymnast

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Mister Scratch wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
Yes. If his good name and the good name of his wife are being besmirched, Pres. Keyes as a moral right to stand up and be counted on to tell the truth. And especially if being dragged through the mud without cause also indirectly drags the church through the same mud hole.

Why do you consider this to be a foolish thing for me to say? Are you a moral authority on this subject?

Regards,
MG


Okay, okay---back up here. In what ways was Keyes "besmirched"? In what ways (for heaven's sake) was his wife besmirched? Further, how---in any was shape or form--does this "indirectly" affect the LDS Church?


Look up besmirched in Wikipedia and see if you can make the connection. Hint: when you plug in besmirch another word will come up.

Dirt+water=mud


You are not answering my question, my dear friend. Here is is again:

What, amongst the things Tal said, "besmirches", "dirties," or "muddies" Pres. Keyes's reputation?

Do you have an answer or not? Because if you don't, then all of this has just been a kangaroo court summoned up by Allen Wyatt & et. al. in order to attack and "besmirch" Tal.


Dear friend? I don't even know you.

If President Keyes is a TBM at his very core and yet he is being portrayed as a closet doubter, can you not see how this would muddy his reputation to those that he serves if the word got out? And in turn, can you not see how this would reflect poorly on the church to have a SP who is a non-believer acting in a hypocritical manner in a high profile calling?

Oh, the word did get out...didn't it?

But is the word TRUE?

To me, it's a no brainer why Pres. Keyes went public.

Truth will prevail.

Regards,
MG
_mentalgymnast

Post by _mentalgymnast »

skippy the dead wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:Tal's story in one form or another is posted in multiple locations if I remember correctly. For the SP to cover the bases he may have felt he needed to post his response on a major forum so that it will/would leak out to the other forums where Tal's story is repeated.

The FAIR blog is a "major forum". Um, not.

mentalgymnast wrote:Limiting his response to this forum and to the thread that I initiated would have limited the scope of influence as it relates to his rebuttal of Tal's remarks . Putting it on the FAIR blog helps to broaden that scope of influence.

How so?

mentalgymnast wrote:After all, you guys found it, right?


Only after Juliann triumphantly dragged the post onto MAD.


Hmmm...may have been a coincidence? <g>

Would you consider MAD to be a major forum for things LDS?

Regards,
MG
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

mentalgymnast wrote:If President Keyes is a TBM at his very core and yet he is being portrayed as a closet doubter, can you not see how this would muddy his reputation to those that he serves if the word got out?


No.... Why don't you tell me? Please, I am dying to hear your explanation as to how this is a harmful "besmirch" on his character that will supposedly sully his reputation and affect his livelihood. Feel free to cite scripture or Church doctrine to support your position.

And in turn, can you not see how this would reflect poorly on the church to have a SP who is a non-believer acting in a hypocritical manner in a high profile calling?


I am unaware of anything in Tal's postings that referred to Keyes as a full-blown "non-believer." Rather, it merely seems he is more of a liberal/doubter concerning some aspects of the Church, rather like Harmony or Rollo Tomasi, or any number of more liberal LDS.

Oh, the word did get out...didn't it?

But is the word TRUE?

To me, it's a no brainer why Pres. Keyes went public.


And why is that? In order to actually defend against some sort of "besmirching"? Or to label Tal a "liar"?
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Post by _Trevor »

Coggins7 wrote:1. If you did not, in essence, call him a liar here, what are you claiming about him?

2. Upon what criteria do you make such an assertion?


What did I, in essence, claim about him? Exactly what I said. That he, like many other human beings, is putting his own past actions in as favorable light as possible. It is the natural way in which we all cover our own asses. We minimize what makes us look bad in front of others and maximize what makes us look good.

On the balance, I see Tal's representation of Mr. Keyes as quite sympathetic, up to the point that Tal parts ways with him by leaving the LDS Church. In other unrelated stories, like the one about Keyes being mortified when a GA told a group of stake missionaries that stake missionaries are generally called to that position because they are losers, Tal casts Keyes in the role of someone who sees things much like he does (i.e., both he and Keyes were mortified by the GA's insensitivity).

What I do not get is the impression that Tal is consciously distorting his stories about Keyes in order to make Keyes look bad. He sees in the man a potential ally.

It is clear that Keyes, reading Tal's claims, is not comfortable in that role, and we can all understand why. If he is still serving as a stake president, it would be very damaging to members of his stake to read about their acting stake president having doubted Joseph Smith's honesty and motives for engaging in polygamy. So, Keyes carefully represents his version of the story such that any implication of doubt on his part is removed. I can imagine Keyes saying "you invented things I did not say," when he actually said something close enough to that for Tal to draw those conclusions.

Technically, Keyes is not lying in denying he said exactly what Tal says he said. I think Tal does sometimes stretch a bit in his powerful emotional response to this stuff. He is prone to hypebole. Nevertheless, I do not believe that Tal pulled this material out of thin air. To say that he was making this stuff up out of whole cloth is to attribute to him a level of maliciousness at the time that does not really stand scrutiny, especially when we understand that he seems to have quite liked Keyes.

Keyes probably did admit to doubting aspects of Joseph Smith's claims and behavior. And, although Tal took it as an admission that Keyes did not believe, he read too much into what Keyes was saying by doing so. At the same time, I do believe there is a certain culture of noblesse oblige among the leadership of the LDS Church that demands a greater deal of public profession of certainty than often actually exists. Keyes is probably prone to the same behavior. It seems he let down his guard a little too much around Tal, probably imagining that Tal, as a celebrity of sorts, would play within the rules. I am sure he now regrets having assumed that Tal would do so.

What can Keyes do at this point? What he does most of the time he speaks as a representative of the LDS Church in public. He expresses his certainty about his testimony. I do not find this damning of Tal's credibility. I do not blame Keyes for doing what he sees as his sacred duty. The two are in conflict on this, as one should expect, I would think.
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