Pre-existence?

[_Mister Scratch]

Book of Abraham. 'Nuff said.

The Book of Abraham is one of the greatest witnesses to Jospeh Smiths prophetic callings that we have ! If you ever bothered to read anything besides the rantings of the peanut gallery you'd know this. He gets so many things right in every chapter of that book, its impossible for him to have faked it !

It is an embarrassment to the church. I await the day it is kicked to the curb where it belongs (along with Sex 132).

I rather suspect that the Book of Abraham will eventually be "demoted" in terms of its canonicity, just as Apostle Hugh Brown suggested. (Admittedly, Brown later recanted/denied this, but there's good reason to believe that other of the better-informed GAs "disapprove" of the Book of Abraham as well.)

[_harmony]

Book of Abraham. 'Nuff said.

The Book of Abraham is one of the greatest witnesses to Jospeh Smiths prophetic callings that we have ! If you ever bothered to read anything besides the rantings of the peanut gallery you'd know this. He gets so many things right in every chapter of that book, its impossible for him to have faked it !

It is an embarrassment to the church. I await the day it is kicked to the curb where it belongs (along with Sex 132).

You are an embarrassment to the Church Harmony, as well as to yourself. Once you are finally exposed to the members of your Ward, Stake, and leaders for who and what you really are (which, without repentance, one way or another, will eventually happen) you will no doubt find this out for yourself.

Try to enjoy the daylight.

Try to engage the subject of the conversation, Loran. Your obsession with my person is telling.

The subject is the Book of Abraham. Now try again.

[Dr. Sunstoned]

Uh, yeah. Anyways, the belief that Blacks were "cursed" with dark skin due to their neutrality in the pre-existence is enshrined in some early works of LDS apologetics. Cf., for example, John Lund's The Church and the Negro.

Keep tripping and falling over your own tongue Scratch, until your face is so swollen from the repeated impacts you can no longer continue your vapid gibberish.

Official, settled, binding, accepted doctrine Scratch, not the theories, speculations, and inferences of long forgotten minor apologists who have no authority to set LDS doctrine or impose idiosyncratic interpretations upon it in any binding sense. Not all apologists are gold apologists, nor are the best of them called to settle doctrinal issues or authoritatively interpret existing doctrine.

We know what "official" doctrine is Scratch, and we know how to tell it from opinion, folk beliefs, and wishful thinking. The bridge is out ahead, but the Scratch Super Chief just keeps rollin' down the line.

A-freaking-mazing.

[_Coggins7]

Try to engage the subject of the conversation, Loran. Your obsession with my person is telling.

The subject is the Book of Abraham. Now try again.

No Harmony. You are the subject of the post. You always are, because all you ever do is project your own inner maelstrom upon the Church and its teachings. You are also an anonymous bomb thrower like Scratch, hiding in cyberspace so your ecclesiastical leaders and fellow LDS won't know that the sheep sitting next to them in sacrament meeting is really a Canis Lupus

[_Gazelam]

Book of Abraham. 'Nuff said.

The Book of Abraham is one of the greatest witnesses to Jospeh Smiths prophetic callings that we have ! If you ever bothered to read anything besides the rantings of the peanut gallery you'd know this. He gets so many things right in every chapter of that book, its impossible for him to have faked it !

It is an embarrassment to the church. I await the day it is kicked to the curb where it belongs (along with Sex 132).

Sigh....

Its 11:30 here, and my eyes hurt. Maybe Sunday we can start a whole thread on Abraham, and we can talk about all the amazing things in Abraham. Or maybe tommorow, my sons turning 8 on Sunday and I might be to busy eating Iron Man cake.

[_Roger Morrison]

Pre-existance--Existance--Post-existance of these three, only one can be evidenced, and discussed intelligently. Both Pre and Post are nothing but recorded imaginings of minds attempting to deface "Existance" (reality) with grafity that hides the significance and beauty of the present.

The only "pre" any person, or living thing, has in this existance is genetic/ancestoral. The only "post" any person, or living thing, has is their progeny/descendants. Nothing more, nothing less. Tis the way of nature/"God". Be happy with it. Don't waste it chasing vain imaginings/pipe dreams.

On the philosophical side, there was a man, 2,000 years ago (among others, before and since) who tried to teach humanity the basics of humane relations. How to best live in the present, but alas humans seem to have been nurtured to ignore the simple in favour of the confused... Warm regards, Roger

[_Mister Scratch]

Uh, yeah. Anyways, the belief that Blacks were "cursed" with dark skin due to their neutrality in the pre-existence is enshrined in some early works of LDS apologetics. Cf., for example, John Lund's The Church and the Negro.

Keep tripping and falling over your own tongue Scratch, until your face is so swollen from the repeated impacts you can no longer continue your vapid gibberish.

Official, settled, binding, accepted doctrine Scratch, not the theories, speculations, and inferences of long forgotten minor apologists who have no authority to set LDS doctrine or impose idiosyncratic interpretations upon it in any binding sense. Not all apologists are gold apologists, nor are the best of them called to settle doctrinal issues or authoritatively interpret existing doctrine.

We know what "official" doctrine is Scratch, and we know how to tell it from opinion, folk beliefs, and wishful thinking. The bridge is out ahead, but the Scratch Super Chief just keeps rollin' down the line.

A-freaking-mazing.

Lund's argument is based upon canonical interpretation of the Standard Works. Furthermore, I have heard this explanation among TBMs on multiple occasions. Lund notes in an afterword that he received approval from the Twelve to write the book, so that is at least tacit acknowledgment that (some) of the GAs also believed that Blacks were "punished" for their neutrality. This doctrine was also (embarrassingly) memorialized in the cartoon segment of Ed Decker's The Godmakers---so, Decker was apparently taught this doctrine as well.

[_Trevor]

The Book of Abraham is one of the greatest witnesses to Jospeh Smiths prophetic callings that we have ! If you ever bothered to read anything besides the rantings of the peanut gallery you'd know this. He gets so many things right in every chapter of that book, its impossible for him to have faked it !

Friends, we have now entered:

[_Mercury]

Book of Abraham. 'Nuff said.

The Book of Abraham is one of the greatest witnesses to Jospeh Smiths prophetic callings that we have ! If you ever bothered to read anything besides the rantings of the peanut gallery you'd know this. He gets so many things right in every chapter of that book, its impossible for him to have faked it !

Gaz, I am concerned that you do not recognize the underlying problems with the Book of Abraham. You find nothing wrong with Joe TOTALLY missing the translation?

[_Gazelam]

Merc,

Gaz, I am concerned that you do not recognize the underlying problems with the Book of Abraham. You find nothing wrong with Joe TOTALLY missing the translation?

Missed the translation of what? The few fragments we have from the museum? Witnesses state that the scrolls Joseph had took up an entire hallway when rolled out. The papers that were translated took hours to read, not the few pages we have now.

What we do know is that what we did get is perfect doctrine that expands and clarifys the doctrines that we had previously. And it matches the Books of Abraham that have found in other parts of the World.

I hope to start a thread in the next couple of days where we can look at these things. Stop looking at what we doint know, and look at the evidence at hand, namely, what is in the Book of Abraham, and how does it compare and stand next to the doctrines and teachings it discusses.