American Idol for Gods

[_beastie]

Moniker wrote:
I don't even know what Shop Erotic is...

Coggins is a perv! Coggins is a perv!




Hmmm, I thought you, of all people...

I never heard of it, either.

Coggs, I think you need to add one more "problem" to your list of "things to work on". Of course, we already knew this from your lewd poems of the past, but now it should be painfully obvious to even you.

I bet you have a problem with porn pop-ups on your computer, too. Those nasty people! How do they know where to find you??? Probably satan.

[_beastie]

The Plan of Salvation as put forth by Mormonism is essentially a eugenics program. It doesn't seem to have much to do with love. It's like natural selection taken to the Nth degree. It's a competition where faith in the supernatural is the ideal and selected trait.

It's American Idol - the Kolob edition. We all line up before Elohim (Simon), Jehovah (Paula),the Holy Ghost (Randy) and Joseph Smith ( as Ryan Seacrest) and audition to get on the stage called Earth. In the end, an infinitesimally small group of people will get contracts to be worshipped as Idols in the eternities.

Its not about god loving his children, its about god looking for the select few who've got the goods, who can perform. In reality the god of Mormonism is not looking to love his children, he is looking to further build his elite super-race.

Sound familiar?

Out of all the "authorized" (dunked, endowed, sealed and endured) people of God, how many will cut the mustard as a percentage of all the people who have and will ever live when the, ostensible, judgment is performed--an extremely small percentage to be sure.

Mormonism is not "the plan of happiness." It is the plan of a callous eugenicist.

I also think amanda's analogy is pretty apt. Although I would add a qualifier: The judges aren't just looking for those who can perform - they're looking for those who will be blindly obedient to their edicts, no matter how initially morally repulsive they may be. For example, Paula would have to order the contestants to kill one of their own kids or slaughter an entire village for the land. Paula would demand that innocent animals be regularly slaughtered to appease her blood-lust. Finally Simon would step in and kill Paula, with her own agreement, so she'd stop asking people to kill all those animals. Of course, the death is brief and temporary, so Paula dying is about as meaningful as a cylon letting him/herself be "killed" on battle star gallactica (for nonBSG fans, there's a cylon "resurrection ship" nearby so the cylon is immediately brought back to life).

But all this now-satisfied blood lust doesn't stop the judges from issuing edicts that must be obeyed, no matter how nonsensical.

What they really want isn't talent or even superb performance - they want obedience, sweetened with a dollop of being willing to believe the most fantastical claims without any solid evidence other than the judge's say-so.

So it's a really twisted American Idol. But some really enjoy it and have made it a very popular show.

[_Jason Bourne]

We at least agree that it is a eugenics program. What we don't agree upon is the notion that pure love and the sharing of happiness can only be truly had under the auspices of the Mormon god's eugenics program. No. Certainly not. What arrogance. Good and loving people abound everywhere. The happiness you describe has nothing to do with the Mormon elitist "plan of salvation."

LDS ideas about Salvation are initially based in Christian Theology. The Christianity of JSs day had a number of ideas about salvation, heaven, hell, grace and works, free will and pre-destination. Keep in mind that the God Joseph Smith was familiar with was one that was considered perfectly Holy and Just. He had laws in place and failing to keep one sent you straight to Hell forever. The only way out was to accept the Savior Jesus who for whatever reason had to die to pay for sin because justice required death and blood to pay for sin. This was required by this perfectly holy God.

Take it a bit further and many believed that this God had pre-destined ahead of time which of his sentient creatures would and would noe be saved. So this life really was purposeless because no matter what we did we would be in eternal bliss with God or we would be eternal toast and burn and suffer forever.

Also keep in mind that in this system there were a bunch of being GOd had already created called angels and a thirf of them had rebelled and been cast out of heaven and are now devils and demons.

So Joseph Smith comes along and depending on what you believe, by revelation or innovation he came up with ideas that addressed some of what seems to be a horrific almost monster of a God in some ways. Remember this God was going to send most of his creation to Hell forever and if you believed in pre-destination he would do it on a whim basically. ANd you had no right to complain because he was PERFECTLY HOLY. We are just his clay and pottery to be dashed to pieces if he wants to.

So Joseph Smith says, wait, there angles are really pre existent humans. A third willingly rebelled and yes were cast out. Seems pretty harsh but still they chose to rebel. God then sends us all hear, knows we will sin, gives us a savior, knows we have to learn, grow, learn to obey, to love, to develop godly attributes and so on. He also has a system of salvation where almost all his children will be saved in some sort of really nice place. Some get a better house then others based on thei progression. Oh and sure, he puts in these seemingly strange rites that one must do to get to the best place. But he gives many many chances to do those rites and even gives most of his kids a chance to do it in the next stage of existence if they do not do it here.

So, while many may find it an unloving plan I think it is a grand improvement on the material Joseph Smith was working with. The nonesense of pre-destination was done away with, the idea that God may not really know about what will be the out come was open, the idea that God, while the most perfect of beings he was not some arbitrary sovereign tyrant the Christianity seemed to paint him I think was a good thing.

Say what you will about it but Joseph Smith seemed concerned about fairness, giving everyone the best of chances to get to the best of places and he also tried to solve some of the difficult ideas of the Christian system of salvation.

[_Jason Bourne]

I understand many believers think the plan is a wonderful thing. I do not.

Yes I understand.

Since I was a child and realized that my family was obviously not one of the chosen (my dad is agnostic and obviously my parents were not sealed, hence I would be without loved ones or family in the CKHL). (Do you need me to explain how hard it was as an adult knowing my mother would not be with my father in heaven)? (Just to be clear, I was taught that I was one of the chosen because I accepted the gospel... my mother and sibs also joined after me still, we would not be together in heaven). While many believers seem to take comfort in the idea that they ARE indeed the chosen, it never, EVER felt like a holy thing... the elitism NEVER felt right in my heart. NEVER.

I was raised by inactive LDS parents neither of who had been to the temple. I understand how hard it is. But I also took comfort in the idea the Joseph Smith presented that the sealing power could even pull wayward family members together after this life though some may have to pay the price ofr their own sions first. \

But yes I understand that.

If I recall correctly Jason, you stated at one time, that the only way you could imagine heaven being a great place without loved ones was if you forgot your loved ones even existed. And you think this is a God of love? :-(

I did not say it was a perfect system in our own understanding. My personal view of a great here after is a God that says "I know that thing called life was really tough, and I know all of you messed it up some really really bad. But I love you all so much so come on back home and hang with me forever."

Jason, please tell me how a plan that separates families, children, and parents from each other for eternity if they do not believe in Joseph Smith is a plan of love? Really. Please tell me how a God that can send 1/3 of his children into outer darkness is one of love? Please tell me how a God that gives this sort of twisted, contorted, test is a God of love?

Personally I think the way we interpret the scripture on this point that ends up with a Saturday's Warrior spin on things is a distortion. I do not think the results of what Smith came up with can seem perfect to us but I think it improves greatly on the ideas about salvation that Christianity provided. And I don't think it a horrible horrible thing either. My own personal views about God though are more in line with what I said above.

In spite of how others view God, the idea that He along with his multiple "wives" could cast out 1/3 of his spirit children NEVER felt like a loving thing. I understand believers think these spirits were horrible, Satanic spirits, still, it never felt right. What sort of God does such a thing to his children?

I do not believe in polygamy. As for his 1/3 this is s tough issue. However I know we discipline children the err now but we also are quick to forgive. Having had two kids that wandered I know my door is always open for them.

Jason, does or does not the church teach there are a chosen group of people who will inherit the CKHL or receive exaltation? I don't know about you but I don't have "chosen" children, nor would I send a few to outer darkness, nor would I create a plan where I would never see some of my children again. Nope, I don't think the plan is loving.

Maybe we are talking past each other. God does not choose them ahead of time. Rather they become heirs of exaltation based on faith in Christ and repentance then on abiding in Christ and becoming sanctified over time. So in essence in a way what you call the chosen choose to chosen. And everyone has equal opportunities. That is one thing I like about the LDS idea.

Do you think God really needed to test people to see who those chosen people are? or who will pass the test? I mean seriously Jason we are talking about the God of the Universe here. While YOU may not hold to the "test" philosophy, many believers do and it is certainly taught in the church as truth.

Yes I understand this.

I'm not saying the LDS church doesn't want people to be loving. Of course they do (for the most part). But the Plan of Salvation, in my opinion, is not about love at all.

I believe only those who attempt as best they can to love will truly be what you call the chosen ones.

[_amantha]

[quote=Truth Dancer"]Do you think God really needed to test people to see who those chosen people are? or who will pass the test? I mean seriously Jason we are talking about the God of the Universe here. While YOU may not hold to the "test" philosophy, many believers do and it is certainly taught in the church as truth. [/quote]

Exactly.

My TBM brother can only understand life in terms of a "test." Why is a test necessary unless god's "plan" is to elect a certain kind of super-being, of which there are only going to be .00000000001% of the total number of humans, who will qualify for his "plan of happiness."

It's the Mormon god's eugenics program. Only the "best of the best" (according to the narrow definition designed by Joseph Smith, et al) will ultimately be allowed to procreate in the eternities. Isn't that the nature of eugenics? Disallowing the unworthy to procreate?

What a dumb idea. If this is the true nature of reality, thank the Mormon god that he gave me agency, because I want no part in it. Thankfully it is obviously not the nature of reality--obvious to those who will stop to see how ridiculous the numbers are. It's the Mormon god, Joseph Smith's version of god, playing the lotto with his children's lives.

[_amantha]

The Plan of Salvation as put forth by Mormonism is essentially a eugenics program. It doesn't seem to have much to do with love. It's like natural selection taken to the Nth degree. It's a competition where faith in the supernatural is the ideal and selected trait.

It's American Idol - the Kolob edition. We all line up before Elohim (Simon), Jehovah (Paula),the Holy Ghost (Randy) and Joseph Smith ( as Ryan Seacrest) and audition to get on the stage called Earth. In the end, an infinitesimally small group of people will get contracts to be worshipped as Idols in the eternities.

Its not about god loving his children, its about god looking for the select few who've got the goods, who can perform. In reality the god of Mormonism is not looking to love his children, he is looking to further build his elite super-race.

Sound familiar?

Out of all the "authorized" (dunked, endowed, sealed and endured) people of God, how many will cut the mustard as a percentage of all the people who have and will ever live when the, ostensible, judgment is performed--an extremely small percentage to be sure.

Mormonism is not "the plan of happiness." It is the plan of a callous eugenicist.

I also think amanda's analogy is pretty apt. Although I would add a qualifier: The judges aren't just looking for those who can perform - they're looking for those who will be blindly obedient to their edicts, no matter how initially morally repulsive they may be. For example, Paula would have to order the contestants to kill one of their own kids or slaughter an entire village for the land. Paula would demand that innocent animals be regularly slaughtered to appease her blood-lust. Finally Simon would step in and kill Paula, with her own agreement, so she'd stop asking people to kill all those animals. Of course, the death is brief and temporary, so Paula dying is about as meaningful as a cylon letting him/herself be "killed" on battle star gallactica (for nonBSG fans, there's a cylon "resurrection ship" nearby so the cylon is immediately brought back to life).

But all this now-satisfied blood lust doesn't stop the judges from issuing edicts that must be obeyed, no matter how nonsensical.

What they really want isn't talent or even superb performance - they want obedience, sweetened with a dollop of being willing to believe the most fantastical claims without any solid evidence other than the judge's say-so.

So it's a really twisted American Idol. But some really enjoy it and have made it a very popular show.

Well that's the selected trait, the faith in the supernatural, a.k.a., blind faith, although, your dramatization does shine a light on the horrid nature of this "plan of happiness."

[_The Nehor]

The Plan of Salvation as put forth by Mormonism is essentially a eugenics program. It doesn't seem to have much to do with love. It's like natural selection taken to the Nth degree. It's a competition where faith in the supernatural is the ideal and selected trait.

It's American Idol - the Kolob edition. We all line up before Elohim (Simon), Jehovah (Paula),the Holy Ghost (Randy) and Joseph Smith ( as Ryan Seacrest) and audition to get on the stage called Earth. In the end, an infinitesimally small group of people will get contracts to be worshipped as Idols in the eternities.

Its not about god loving his children, its about god looking for the select few who've got the goods, who can perform. In reality the god of Mormonism is not looking to love his children, he is looking to further build his elite super-race.

Sound familiar?

Out of all the "authorized" (dunked, endowed, sealed and endured) people of God, how many will cut the mustard as a percentage of all the people who have and will ever live when the, ostensible, judgment is performed--an extremely small percentage to be sure.

Mormonism is not "the plan of happiness." It is the plan of a callous eugenicist.

A eugenics program that involves finding those willing to develop pure love and exalting them to where they can dwell and share their happiness with each other forever. I don't understand why so many fixate on the concept of godhood as if it's some prize to be worshipped. The prize is the culture they will create. One where ego is subsumed into a whole. A place where every success is rejoiced for by all as if all had done it. There will be no need for envy in such a place. Where every tear will be wiped away and all will be utterly fulfilled. A place in heaven custom-made for you because you were also made for it. A place where guilt, misery, and woe can't be found. This is the society of the Gods.

How many will cut the mustard? In this I agree with C.S. Lewis in that all who seek for true happiness will find it. Most people don't. I don't far too often.

We at least agree that it is a eugenics program. What we don't agree upon is the notion that pure love and the sharing of happiness can only be truly had under the auspices of the Mormon god's eugenics program. No. Certainly not. What arrogance. Good and loving people abound everywhere. The happiness you describe has nothing to do with the Mormon elitist "plan of salvation."

As we can clearly discern in the examples of the polygamous affairs of the lecherous Jo Smith and the equally nefarious FLDS, there is plenty of guilt, misery and woe to be found in these earthly models of the Mormon god's ideal heaven.

I agree with you again in that fixation on "godhood" in wholly unnecessary. Happiness is not to be found in such hallucinations but in the realization that heaven is a state of mind.

Sorry, I don't agree it's a eugenics program. I was using the term in a sarcastic manner. Sorry, the intertubes don't convey that well.

I think pure love and real sharing of happiness can only occur under his plan. I don't think that statement is arrogant at all.

I've read a lot about polygamy. There was difficulty and struggling but I didn't see a lot of guilt, misery, and woe.

[_The Nehor]

The very existence of the 2nd Anointing ceremony blows The Nehor's argument out of the water. We know from anecdotal accounts that the granting of the 2nd Anointing is based upon nepotism and utter loyalty to the Church.

i.e. we can gather that from a few random stories about a specific ordinance that God only lets a few people into heaven. Do you listen to yourself?

[_amantha]

Say what you will about it but Joseph Smith seemed concerned about fairness, giving everyone the best of chances to get to the best of places and he also tried to solve some of the difficult ideas of the Christian system of salvation.

You have simply reframed the "plan of salvation" to suit you. Be my guest if you can still believe it and take comfort from it. I just can't. Joseph Smith's "improvements" upon prior Christian notions of the after-life are devoid of any truth and grace at all. If you want to believe that you and your family live happily in the presence of God due to your faith and good works, then by all means believe it, but don't give any credit to Joseph Smith for it. Credit yourself, or can you not believe something unless some other guy said it a couple hundred years ago and a few million believe it today.

If you want to respect Joseph Smith for his religious creativity despite the obvious flaws in his ideas, I suppose I can understand that from a purely academic perspective. I can respect religious thought from whatever source as a human achievement in freeing brain cells from constantly thinking on death, i.e., providing comfort, but that's all the respect I can afford it. =n order to do that I have to also ignore the catastrophic implications of the numbers of people who are being consigned to hell or misery of some sort for not buying into, by virtue of absolute obedience, the religious creativity of another human being.

You seem to want to defend Joseph, et al's ideas as if they still represent the last word in religious thought. Why not just consider him a piece of the overall puzzle and give him his credit for his "contributions" and start thinking for yourself.

[_The Nehor]

Exactly.

My TBM brother can only understand life in terms of a "test." Why is a test necessary unless god's "plan" is to elect a certain kind of super-being, of which there are only going to be .00000000001% of the total number of humans, who will qualify for his "plan of happiness."

It's the Mormon god's eugenics program. Only the "best of the best" (according to the narrow definition designed by Joseph Smith, et al) will ultimately be allowed to procreate in the eternities. Isn't that the nature of eugenics? Disallowing the unworthy to procreate?

What a dumb idea. If this is the true nature of reality, thank the Mormon god that he gave me agency, because I want no part in it. Thankfully it is obviously not the nature of reality--obvious to those who will stop to see how ridiculous the numbers are. It's the Mormon god, Joseph Smith's version of god, playing the lotto with his children's lives.

I'm perfectly fine with it being a test. However, the error is thinking of it like a written test. A written test has little effect upon the person tested. They generally don't change during the process of taking the test. In other words, if you were absolutely sure a person could pass the test there would be no need for the test. Therefore the logic goes that if God knows we could pass the test there is no need for it.

Life is not that kind of test. I'm not proving anything to God. He already knows whether I'll hack it or not. However, even if I am going to be exalted I was in no condition to take up that position before this life. I may know that a high school student will make a good surgeon due to his dedication and brilliance but I'm not going to hand him a scalpel and tell him to remove my appendix until he's been through medical school.