RockHeaded wrote:Oliver Cowdery said that he wrote all of the Book of Mormon down as Joseph dictated, except a few pages. He stated that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim throughout translation.
People sometimes lie.
is this a self confession?
No, let me revise my statement. Oliver Cowdery lied.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
RockHeaded wrote:Oliver Cowdery said that he wrote all of the Book of Mormon down as Joseph dictated, except a few pages. He stated that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim throughout translation.
People sometimes lie.
is this a self confession?
No, let me revise my statement. Oliver Cowdery lied.
Really? Prove it.
"… Do you believe Jesus Christ and the gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship. I am just as ready to die defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination." Joseph Smith jr. Sermon, 1843
I seriously can't believe how any Mormon would see a thread like this, and come to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was not a fraud.
Because when you look at the doctrines that came from this, then you realize how right Joseph was. The teachings that came forth from the restoration clarify and expand and expound all of the teachigns of Christ that we have from the Bible. It clarifys teachings and makes Christ easier to understand.
And how does the way Joseph received revelation through Urim and Thummim compare to your experience? You obviously are baseing your criticisms on personal experience through your own usage, am I right?
Look at what the Church promotes. Then look at the change of story, ie, breast plate and glasses. Then look at the truth: No plate, a treasure-seeking seer stone in a hat, Oiver Cowdrey "writing it down", ie, co-authoring (if you think about it).
C'mon, man. Use your dam* brain.
Last edited by Guest on Sun May 04, 2008 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RockHeaded wrote:Oliver Cowdery said that he wrote all of the Book of Mormon down as Joseph dictated, except a few pages. He stated that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim throughout translation.
RockHeaded
That is quite a concatenation of nonsense and speculation mixed with incomplete evidence, RH.
Bishop Dr. Peterson wrote:I've never understood, incidentally, why some critics think that translating the Book of Mormon with the help of a single seerstone is so much more fantastically bizarre than the more commonly heard notion that the Book of Mormon was translated with the aid of two stones set in a bow. You either buy it or you don't. One story doesn't seem to me intrinsically more weird or less plausible than the other.
I think he is right about this. Why should the number or the configuration of the power stones matter? Its their translating ability that is important. He could have even added in a quote from that Dylan song to elucidated on the equality of the stoning process.
Only the church doesn't teach the seer stone version. The issue is the erroneous history, not the choice of supernatural belief. Dan diverts to a strawman.
Russell M. Nelson, “A Treasured Testament,” Ensign, Jul 1993, 61 Adapted from an address given 25 June 1992 at a seminar for new mission presidents, Missionary Training Center, Provo, Utah. ... The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote: “Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.) ...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
I think if one were to compile articles from The Ensign, Church News, CES manuals, and other Mormon church material you would see a huge disparity between the fraudulent version being promoted versus the true version being "taught". Hell, if you go to LDS.org under "Gospel Topics" you'll see no mention of the seer stone, which is the single most important key in the "translation process". The plates are mentioned. The U&T are mentioned, but no details offered. Yet, the seer stone, the very thing used to "translate" the absent plates... No mention.
To a newcomer trying to find resources, or to a lay church member perusing the Internet vital facts surrounding this issue are conspicuously absent.
What he is saying still does not validate the Book of Mormon. As a matter of fact all it does is create TWO fantastical methods for translating a book no one has ever seen without completely discrediting themselves.
Its like choosing between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.
Head in a hat w/ stone:
talking over a sheet with U & T:
They both have no basis in reality and rely on magical thinking bore out of mysticism and country moonshine.
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
RockHeaded wrote:Oliver Cowdery said that he wrote all of the Book of Mormon down as Joseph dictated, except a few pages. He stated that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim throughout translation.
People sometimes lie.
is this a self confession?
It is a fact that I lie, and I know nobody who doesn't lie. Do you think I'm telling the truth, smiling "I'm fine" when my employees, vendors, wife asking me? In actuality I feel like raged animal. We make up tens of these pseudo answers daily.
This is nothing compared to when I was working for someone else. I confess, I lied around the clock then to look charming and halfway happy, in actuality I hated being there.
Oh wait, how 'bout the Church? How many times I was there, when there was a burning desire to be home and watch Cowboys play?
Good thing is humans are smart, they learn to unload most of the unnecessary BS and lie less.......
RockHeaded wrote: Oliver Cowdery said that he wrote all of the Book of Mormon down as Joseph dictated, except a few pages. He stated that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim throughout translation.
RockHeaded
(I was under the impression Oliver Cowdery didn't mention any U & T or seer stone being used when he took dictation. Sorry to be lazy about this, but what reference is used to support the above?)
Edit: Ok I did a search and found some sort of reference to him saying J.S. used the U & T., but I find this rather inconsistent with others involved. Some of the translators say J.S. used a seer stone and then Cowdery says U & T, which are not one and the same. Who is the first of all those involved to have said a U & T was used as opposed to one seer stone or even two?
I thought the idea of claiming to translate via the Urim and Thummin came into vogue sometime after the fact. Perhaps the Biblical connection was its selling point.
